Jeeperjoe's build thread

[Jeeperjoe]

Admittedly, I don't remember if you have two alternators or not, but from the readings on your Volt meter it looks like you do. Or your one alternator is seriously over charging.
Either way, my main concern would be to stop that over charge and worry about what voltage the starter is later. Disable the glow plugs for now if you're worried about them.
Have you tried that starter's part number, if that's what it is, on Google?

Yeah nothing comes up, I'll have to mess with it more this week hoping to get more insight, both alts appear to be hooked up as 24v glow plug resistor removed (pretty chilly here) and Batts hooked up in parallel. Side note should I be hearing the glow plug card or solenoid clicking in the cab when I cycle the key?

 

[Jeeperjoe]

Here's an interesting question if the Batts are only at 12v would they even turn a 24v starter?

 

[The FLU farm]

Here's an interesting question if the Batts are only at 12v would they even turn a 24v starter?

They likely would, but slowly. Unfortunately, your batteries are not at the 12.7 Volts they should be (if fully charged) so in that sense you have what amounts to a poorly charged 24 Volt setup, which probably would start.
Maybe you actually have a 12 Volt conversion, but it's still being fed 24 Volts by the alternators? It'd be easy enough to pull the belt, or wiring, from the right one and see what happens. But again, I wouldn't take my word for it.

 

[Jeeperjoe]

so the solenoid on the starter would actuate at 16 volts? i thought it would require much higher in order to actuate and to actually turn over the motor, as it sits now the truck turns over almost if not as well as my 2010 expedition. do you or anyone know what a 24v truck sits at in neutral voltage? not running pre start

or if i disconnected one battery the truck would have a very difficult time trying to start and that would tell me i have a 24v starter...

is there any definitive way to tell if i have the 24v starter on the truck without removing it and inspecting it for markings / part number

either way i have a 6.2 12v starter so if i need to i will complete the conversion tomorrow depending on how cold it is, i wanted the 24 but if this has been partially hacked in by the PO or FD i will complete it correctly and look into getting the proper 24v components and re installing it later down the road

 

[The FLU farm]

Since the Volt meter in an M1008 isn't showing numbers, I don't know what the actual voltage is when turning the engine over while the glow plugs are on. But I do know that it shows a little bit higher than the meter (still 24 Volt) in my converted M1009 did at full charge. In both cases, the reading is quite low. In the M1009 the needle would be by the + symbol on the meter when charging if memory serves me.

A 24 Volt vehicle should have 25.4 Volts, or two times 12.7 Volts, when fully charged.

Since the voltage would stay the same whether you have one or both batteries hooked up (in your case), the starter should act about the same. But not for as long with only one battery, as you'd have only half the amperage available.

Not sure what you mean by "proper 24v components". A starter?

But if you have the literature for a 12 Volt conversion handy, why not follow the schematic in there (or look at a regular schematic for a CUCV), and compare it to the wiring you have?
There are a gazilion things I don't understand, but I do know that you normally don't have two 12 Volt alternators powering a 12 Volt system, whether that's a single battery or two in parallel. Yes, dual alternators are optional on some modern pickups, but I have no clue how those systems work.
It sure sounds like you are running 24 Volts from the two alternators into what is now a 12 Volt system (possibly not including the starter). How else could the batteries be so severely overcharged?

Please look at a schematic. And do take a peek at the starter, from below, too. There are probably markings on it somewhere.
I wouldn't care one bit which kind of starter it is at this point if I were you. Either wire the batteries to match the charging system, or convert the charging system to 12 Volt.

 

[Jeeperjoe]

FLU Farm i appreciate all of the help you are giving me, i just want to make sure that the truck is still 24v before possibly frying a 12v starter ($200) i will look further in the morning to see how they removed the resistor pack on a 24 volt system and still have surviving glow plugs in the truck, after much more research i see there is a 12v bypass mod for the GP system by moving one of the ring terminals on the GP relay under the hood. like i said i will see what i have hooked up and how and see what happens from there.

I guess my big question here is if i put the batt cables in series rather than parallel what are the possible ramifications if the truck has some aspect of a 12v conversion completed.

 

[Jeeperjoe]

so here is what im seeing for the wiring from the old GP resistor, it is wired from the bus bar to the solenoid directly, is this for 12v operation of the GP circuit and removal of the GP Resistor? or is this wired incorrectly? my head is swimming in information from all of the reading i am doing. i would like to keep the truck 24v if at all possible but i just cant see how this thing is wired. i have no experience with 24v starter systems other than i have driven them in some big trucks but no formal training... i can not get access to any part numbers other than the one i took a photo of on the starter there is no other markings anywhere that i can see, tomorrow barring cold crappy weather i will pull the starter to see if there is any other markings on it on the top side that is shielded from the top by the exhaust manifold and frame making it impossible to see anything


photo one has a red circle with the wording

"From buss bar to here on solenoid"

on photo 2 is the wire that is hooked up to "HERE" on photo 1

photo 3 is just the overall look of the wiring at the bussbar, the solenoid wire is blue in that photo for the fusible link

 

[Jeeperjoe]

well now im even more confused...

i went through the roscommon 12v conversion and decided to take a look at the alternator wiring to see how easy it would be to just swap it over to 12V to be certain that it was at least a baseline to start from, well steps 1 - 5 appear to have already been done, step 6 remove the wire from the ground terminal on passenger side alternator...

there is no ground terminal on the passenger side alternator, so does this mean someone swapped out the pass side with a non isolated ground alternator at some point?

its supposed to be a red wire with white tracer but all i see on there is a red dual wire and a pink wire with a fused link attached to the same post, where the ground post is supposed to be there is nothing.

so at this point if i were to pull the drivers side alternator and put it in place of the passenger alt i could hook it up the way they describe in the roscommon instructions as it does in fact have the ground post where it is supposed to be, both cases are stamped Delco-Remy

 

[The FLU farm]

Spent the day driving to Denver, picking up affordable wheels and a 12-inch bucket for the FLU419. I'll try to regain some thinking capacity tomorrow.
Can't believe that nobody with intimate knowledge of this stuff (of which there seems to be many on the CUCV threads) has chimed in. Between you and me it seems to be a case of the blind leading the blind.
Maybe they're just reading and giggling?

 

[Another Ahab]

Can't believe that nobody with intimate knowledge of this stuff has chimed in. Maybe they're just reading and giggling?

Some of us are just here for the popcorn.

But of course all of that's gone now. Guess it'll just have to be Goobers-and Raisinets from here on out.
But don't you worry we'll still be here! Even though we're NO help at all.

 

[Jeeperjoe]

Spent the day driving to Denver, picking up affordable wheels and a 12-inch bucket for the FLU419. I'll try to regain some thinking capacity tomorrow.
Can't believe that nobody with intimate knowledge of this stuff (of which there seems to be many on the CUCV threads) has chimed in. Between you and me it seems to be a case of the blind leading the blind.
Maybe they're just reading and giggling?

like i said i do appreciate all of the help up to now, dont know why im not getting more information, not sure if i somehow pissed them off or?

Some of us are just here for the popcorn.

But of course all of that's gone now. Guess it'll just have to be Goobers-and Raisinets from here on out.
But don't you worry we'll still be here! Even though we're NO help at all.

Hrmm

 

[Another Ahab]

like i said i do appreciate all of the help up to now, dont know why im not getting more information, not sure if i somehow pissed them off or?


Hrmm

Uh-oh...

Time to blend into the background.

 

[Jeeperjoe]

Uh-oh...

Time to blend into the background.

thanks for the visit Mr. Ahab

My replies in red...

okay, so ive been thinking more on it today, if i were to remove the drivers side connections to the alt and secure the wiring that would/should/is possibly the last step in the 12v conversion that should repair/temporarily fix the issues im having with the over charge. as for the cross-reference heres what i came up with

Part Number
20136

Status
Active

Model
DREI27SI

Type
Reman Alternator

System Voltage
12

Rated Output
100 Amps

Pulley Type
V-Belt

Pulley Groove Count
1

B+ Output Terminal
12-24

Regulator Type
IR

Regulator Plug Position
12:00

Rotation
CW

Fan Type
EF

that is from the DELCO - Remy website (sorry the text is in black, that is a copy paste from the website) the only markings i could come up with from the pass alt were "A1100" that comes up as obsolete and this was the replacement, looks the same case wise and connection wise. with what i can only assume the dual red wire connected to the back would be for 24v connectivity from the drivers side alternator

a GM service rep told me today that i shouldnt worry about the 20v charge due to having dual batteries he said my system should be able to handle it...

 

[Jeeperjoe]

I think I know what you mean and what your goal is...but I must ask, why do you want a 12V conversion? If you have a working 24V system (which, even after reading this thread backwards, I am not sure of), I would leave it alone. Trust me!!!! As others here would tell you I am sure.

To answer your above question, if I understand correctly, then yes, that should work for 12V.

FYI, running a single alternator (pass side) on my wife's (12V conversion), we use a Gates 44 3/8" belt. After trying about half a dozen different length belts, that one fit best with the allowance of some adjustment as needed.

thanks for your reply, as i stated im not a big fan of converting the truck but i fear that the FD or PO of this truck started a 12V conversion and i do not at this time know what has been changed over so if i put the truck back to 24V i have fear of ruining the electrical system of the truck. if going 12V is the safer of the options than that is what i will do to keep the truck running at this point.

seeing as how the batteries are wired +to+ -to- and resistor pack was removed from the GP circuit that is my reason for believing that they started converting it. i dont know maybe im worried over nothing but I must leave my reliable (2010 expedition) with the wife so she can cart my 3 kids around and i need a reliable runner to get to and from work (just about to come off a 2 week vacation) if i would have realized this truck had some very questionable things done to it i would not have sold my 2008 crown vic so i would have had a reliable runner at least until i get the truck to 100% so at this point i think that will be the easiest fix to my possible issues... of course i have not verified if the starter is 24 or 12 but it was replaced with a gear reduction unit based off of the size of it vs the old direct drive units

 

[Jeeperjoe]

now as for the isolated ground starter is there anything i need to do in the engine to make the rest of the truck non isolated gd so that it is not a potential issue there, or should i swap the drivers side alt into the position of the passenger so that i have an isolated gd case on that side? i guess im not sure as to what the difference is other than where the gd location is from the alt.

 

[The FLU farm]

...a GM service rep told me today that i shouldnt worry about the 20v charge due to having dual batteries he said my system should be able to handle it...

Well, most importantly, the 20 Volt charge is not because of the dual batteries. The 20 Volts in (what appears to be) a 12 Volt system is due to it being charged with 24 Volts.
As far as the wiring goes, it'll be happier with a higher voltage as it means being subjected to less amperage for a given load. Other things, such as motors, bulbs, gauges, etc. would not appreciate the over voltage.
Here I thought my advice was questionable - that GM service rep makes me look intelligent in comparison.

"Isolated ground starter"? Really??

 

[Jeeperjoe]

Don't know why I typed starter I meant alternator, and I wasn't saying his answer was correct as you and 3 or 4 other sources said 20v is no Bueno with the charging

 

[The FLU farm]

Yeah, after re-reading your post I realized that you probably meant alternator. Sorry.

 

[Another Ahab]

Yeah, after re-reading your post I realized that you probably meant alternator. Sorry.

 

[Jeeperjoe]

So based on the information that I provided up to this point I believe we're safe to assume the passenger side alternator or generator 2 is grounded to the engine through the case, if that's the case here in theory if all of my research has been correct all I need to do to supply 12 volts instead of 20v the batteries is remove the driver side alternator and insulate the associated wires

Would I be correct in assuming that or does somebody have more information on the matter