LDS VS LDT and the real differences

[fcdrifter13]

some errors in previous posts.
2 hole injectors replaced the 1 hole. they don't spray onto the top of piston, rather into a chamber in it. oil cooling on ldt just sprays onto the piston. lds sprays into passages in the head of the piston. all considered, i have turned ldt engines up to at least as much power as lds.

tom

Wait I thougt the ldt and lds motors were direct injection not pre chambered

 

[m-35tom]

you need to go back and read what i said, then learn how these unique diesel engines work. they are direct injection, but they do not just spray the fuel across the head of the piston like most.

 

[SCSG-G4]

The MAN Cycle sprays a stream of liquid into a 'cup' on top of the piston, where it vaporizes and combusts. M-35tom is correct, grasshopper!

 

[JasonS]

There is a decent paper available online by D Lee entitled "Combustion Similations of Direct Injection Diesel Engine Having 'M' Thype Combustion Chamber" which outlines how the multifuel works.

 

[glcaines]

There was a post on SS that I read once that included an attachment that explained the whole history of the multifuel engine, the licensing agreement from the German patent owners and Continental, and how the pocket on the top of the piston swirled and mixed the fuel after the injection process. From what I remember, there was concern that the high compression ratio actually cause decomposition of diesel fuel and gasoline. It was quite enlightening, but I can no longer find it and I don't remember who the poster was. I saved a copy, but it is now lost. It may have been posted by David Doyle now that I think about it.

 

[Squirt-Truck]

When did the 2 hole injectors replace the single hole ones. My 1989 overhaul date LDS-1A has single hole injectors and the 2910-226-34 manual calls for single holes in Code B pumps?

(1) Use two-hole injector nozzle and holder
assemblies (fig. 3-163, 3-169 and 3-170) with code F
pump, and one-hole injector nozzle and holder
assemblies with code B injection pump.
NOTE
Code B pumps used to replace code F pumps
must be calibrated with two hole nozzles.
After calibration, tag the pump making one
of the following statements as applicable:
FOR USE ON CODE B ENGINE
ASSEMBLY (LDS-465-lA)
FOR USE ON CODE F ENGINE ASSEMBLY
(LDS-465-1)​

​

​

Possibly there is more difference than we think in the pumps.....​

The MANN story of the "Whisper Diesel" is a good read.

 

[fcdrifter13]

The MAN Cycle sprays a stream of liquid into a 'cup' on top of the piston, where it vaporizes and combusts. M-35tom is correct, grasshopper!

It is kind of odd to have this feature on a di diesel. Most piston with the bathtub design are used in idi engines where lower pop pressures and higher crs are needed to make everything go bang. Thid leads me to belive that the ldt and lds motors have lower injection pressures so not to sure heat the fuel when using other than strait diesel. Presssure equals heat, if it is to much the fuel would combust at the wrong time causeing a high amount of knock.

 

[mudguppy]

... they are direct injection, but they do not just spray the fuel across the head of the piston like most.

honestly, i'm not familiar with a direct injection diesel that doesn't have a 'cup' or 'bowl' in the piston for combustion to occur.

i know the B and C series Cummins do. the current and previous 3 generations of powerstrokes do. can't speak for d-max's, but i think they do also. i think the DT internationals as well.

which diesels don't? are we talking about equivalent generation diesels?

 

[midcounty]

Ok, I know people have turned up LDT engines to LDS power. I am wondering if the LDS can be turned up higher yet. If the pump timing and or pressure is different, and the rocker arms are different, I am thinking a cranked up LDS will be fun. I will find out when my gauges get installed

 

[JasonS]

There was a post on SS that I read once that included an attachment that explained the whole history of the multifuel engine, the licensing agreement from the German patent owners and Continental, and how the pocket on the top of the piston swirled and mixed the fuel after the injection process. From what I remember, there was concern that the high compression ratio actually cause decomposition of diesel fuel and gasoline. It was quite enlightening, but I can no longer find it and I don't remember who the poster was. I saved a copy, but it is now lost. It may have been posted by David Doyle now that I think about it.

Continental published a paper in 1964 outlining the development of the LD and LDS-465 engines: "Development of Multifuel Features of the LD-465 and LDS-465 Military Engines." It describes many of the features of the engines as well as how the combustion chamber operates. It also stated that 250HP and 550 ft*lb were demonstrated and 300HP appeared possible while maintaining full multifuel capability (meaning high compression).

 

[midcounty]

300hp in a Deuce, now that would be scary

 

[m-35tom]

i seriously doubt the multifuel would ever make 300 hp. it would take more rpm and we all know that is an issue. there are however several trucks around that have 200 hp at 600+ ftlbs of torque. that gives exceptional performance and ignores most hills.

tom

 

[mudguppy]

300hp in a Deuce, now that would be scary

it isn't scary, it's nice. you'll have to trust me on that one.

 

[largeboar]

Which of the three is this one!

How would I be able to tell which engine I have in my Duece.

 

[doghead]

Look at the data tag on the engine, under the intake manifold.

 

[ltrdiesel]

300hp in a Deuce, now that would be scary

300 hp or more would be an easy task. I have a good relationship with a company that builds 3 second quarter mile diesel dragsters and have a maped out plan thats starting this week. Rods are a ballance issue. chryo ballance and blueprint, maybee twins, custom cut cam custom 6 hole injectors and a hot rod pump. They are also an Ambac dealer and pump shop. Port & polish, fire rings studs all around and more. I can get almost 800 hp, 80psi of boost, and 6000+ rpm out of a common rail cummins on a modified single turbo and cp3. That is a 360 c.i. engine. This is a 465c.i. Its all about air in and air out. There is alot of room to play. I will post pics along the way so stay tuned

 

[Westech]

300 hp or more would be an easy task. I have a good relationship with a company that builds 3 second quarter mile diesel dragsters and

no you don't..... you mean 1/8th mile.

Also have you ever seen the super slow motion of the Multi fuel cylinder head? I bet no. You are able to see the head lift off on every compression and power stroke. The studs stretch enough for you to see it. If you recast the block, crank, rods, cam, heads, ect I am sure you can get all the power you want.. but in stock cast form the block its self is not going to take it.
By all means build what ever you want and I really wish you the best. If I had the coin I would do that same thing, just don't be surprised when it lets go.

 

[Flyingvan911]

Maybe Itrdiesel can start a new line of "performance" parts for the deuce! Modern balanced crankshafts, stronger rods...This could be cool. I look forward to see your results.

 

[hdexpert]

cool

300 hp or more would be an easy task. I have a good relationship with a company that builds 3 second quarter mile diesel dragsters and have a maped out plan thats starting this week. Rods are a ballance issue. chryo ballance and blueprint, maybee twins, custom cut cam custom 6 hole injectors and a hot rod pump. They are also an Ambac dealer and pump shop. Port & polish, fire rings studs all around and more. I can get almost 800 hp, 80psi of boost, and 6000+ rpm out of a common rail cummins on a modified single turbo and cp3. That is a 360 c.i. engine. This is a 465c.i. Its all about air in and air out. There is alot of room to play. I will post pics along the way so stay tuned

Not sure how it will turn out but I applaud your efforts!! If 300HP turns out to be a bit much for the block I can see you developing products that would net the average Joe 200-250HP. I'll be staying tuned!!

 

[m-35tom]

it's amazing how much crap people believe. ok,maybe the 465 can put out 400-500 hp for 5 or 6 seconds. so what? we need a reliable engine that will run for 100,000 miles minimum. it ain't gonna happen. if you use a different block, different heads, crank, pistons, rods, etc, it is not the same engine. no one here is gonna pay for that kind of engine when they can just put a 8.4 cimmins in.