Legal issues with transporting "troops" in a Deuce

[kc8sfq]

We have been stopped at the our big fall trail ride and told that no one may ride in the back of our MV's on the road. This is a recent law passed here in the People's Republic of Michuniga.
This was brought on a couple of years ago when a truck load of undocumented citizens (illegal aliens) crashed. At one time one officer told us that if we had the side curtains down, the
rear passengers were restrained and it was OK. Better to not carry people in back on raod. it's just less hassle considering that cops on the side of the road have the power to make up
what they don't know and court time to sort it out is expensive, even if you win.

 

[tamangel]

I was searching by key words: passenger..truck..seating..etc.. What came up, I attempted to sift through for what this guy is asking.. Alot came up on CDL's and Commercial ops.. I couldn't find anything that approached 'over 10 passengers' other than Commercial Ops stuff.. Or bus driver... that's where and why it was posted..Anyone else care to do a search..go for it.. I suspect, as I mentioned, the local State guys (unless you maybe find a commercial inspector-he would maybe know both sides of the issue) may not know the sections affected as outside their normal sphere of enforcement..

a good LEO only writes tickets he/she can defend in court..Sounds like you-all run into the opposite regularly..

Mike

 

[Jake0147]

Most states will preclude riding in the back of a truck. Some will not. If you're taking fuel money even as a reimbursement, precident says they're gonna classify you as commercial. If you're crossing state lines, that's gonna make you responsible to state AND federal regulations. You're gonna need licensing, insurance, safety standards (some of which in the case of people movers have been retroactive, meaning the way it was made wasn't good enough).

The answer for in state only use comes from the state DMV. Research the laws, but also ask the commisioner (or other head of the department) for their interpretation in writing. Precident and interpretation will trump actual dictionary definitions, as many of the wordings have assigned definitions elsewhere in state law.

 

[DDoyle]

My .02,
Your insurance carrier's written opinion is one of the keys. The other keys are how good are your maintenance and driving skills. You are trusting a dozen lives to the single-circuit brake system - because as pointed out the only crash protection is your skill. The truck was designed specifically to haul passengers in the back, which can be documented voluminously. In 1949 when it was designed the criteria didn't say "only GIs in time of war". If your truck was delivered prior to 1968 it predates the Federal motor vehicle standards.

LEOs have a tough way of it with ever-changing laws on a myriad of subjects. However, I've encounted at least one who tried to interpret his opinon as "the law". (He wanted to cite me for not having a rear view mirror inside the cab). After a bit of heated discussion I instructed him to write the citation and we'd meet in court, but I was through listening to his lecture - and by the way he needed to stop every semi that passed by 'cause none of them were so equipped.

As Simon Cowel would say, "I'm not trying to be rude..." but these guys are paid to enforce the law (i.e. write tickets), not interpret the laws or write tickets.

Do your research, and if the law in your state (as in Tennessee) says no passengers in areas of vehicles not designed to haul passengers, print it out, do your PM and load them up. If you get pulled over, show the LEO your documentation, and if that does not satisfy, show it to the judge.

Regards,
David Doyle

 

[Mackfire68]

School buses don't have seat belts because the seats are designed to obsorb the impact (compartization - remember the old school buses with low back seats and metal bars? New buses have high paded seats that are closer together). If someone was wearing a seat belt and was involved in a crash, thay would be flung forward into the seat in front of them and possibly break their necks. And beside, who would assume the legal respobcibility if the person wasn't properly wearing his or her seat belt. In PA. you need a CDL license to haul 16 or more people, I'm sure you would be exempt for a parade or similar event. I agree with the other posts, check with the local police, but I don't think ithey will give you an answer. Can you contact your state DOT? PA. has a number to call for questions just like this.

 

[B3.3T]

16 & 17 year olds ARE kids, in any state. Any of your gaming activities places you and your adult friends at risk from their parents. REGARDLESS of any waiver they may sign. A lost eye, or much less, its your ass. Also, any type of emotional or sexual abuse claims, its your ass. Their sex has nothing to do with it. They are NOT your peers, they are minors, and you are responsible.

 

[M37Dodge]

PA -

http://www.camphillpolice.org/FAQ.html - nice summary PA rule.

Their interpretation of the satute permits your M35 to haul adults under 35mph. No kids unless meeting an exception such as a sanctioned parade or hauling on a farm.

 

[willey10]

I am pretty sure my policy says no riders in the back.(JC Taylor) but I unofficially take about 15 or so scouts with at least 2 adults in the back of my M35A2 around to put flags on about 400 veterans graves for memorial day, I always get thumbs up, but one accident and better call your lawyer.

 

[Stan Leschert]

Don't want to be a wet blanket, but up here DND has a very simple policy. Troops will not be transported on public roads for more than 10 Klicks (less than 4 miles) unless they are in a commercial transport vehicle (IE: BUS). On DND property or leased training areas, there are no such restricions, providing that the operator has a current DND 404 (liscence) for that pattern of vehicle. I might asume that down south , where you have more lawyers than we have stupid politicians, things might be a wee bit tighter. It's your insurance, so take care.

 

[Brian Thomas]

Here in Utah, it is a farming state. You can haul people in the bed of a truck! With no seats or belts. No one riding can sit on the rail of the bed.
I have seen land scape companys hauling "imigrant workers" in the back of trucks on the free way of all places. I asked a buddy of mine that is a highway cop about this. He informed me of the farming code and that as long as the people in the back are not on the rail of the bed it was fine, even on the free way. Go figure.

 

[fuzzytoaster]

I cant comment on your area specifically, but in Texas everyone in the bed of a truck must now be buckled up. With the size of the vehicle and number of persons (assuming you intend to haul the max allowable) you may have to get your class B with passenger endorsement. I have it (and a few others) and it will allow me to do it with any vehicle within reason. As for the chauffeurs thing, yes you will require one if your accepting payment in anyway, and probably have to registure as a commercial vehicle.

I too will be using my M35A2 for airsoft-milsim in addition to other things. But as long as you keep your wheels on private property, and get passengers to sign a waver, you shouldnt have too many problems. Insurance may have other things in mind.

 

[dabtl]

We carry people in the back only in parades, these are on public streets at about 3 miles per hour, and at times put children in the rear for a loop around a farm tank at extremely slow speeds with adults supervising them. If I were an insurance company asked about hauling even adults on public roads in a deuce, the policy cancellation would be the reply.

Liability would be in the extreme it would seem to me.

 

[Scarecrow1]

Not to sound like a smart butt .call the DMV of your state and ask them to fax or mail you the rules that apply to your situation .It's the only way to play it safe and win......

 

[cten]

You could install 16 seatbelts in the rear for about $200.00 bucks yourself. It will take out a few hours to do so. I really try to not carry anyone in back unless it is a special event like a parade or going back and forth from a 4th of July fireworks event. Scouts are not even suppose to be in a vehicle unless there are restraints. I've traveled 150 miles with 16 in the back and 3 in the front with the cover down and seatbelts buckled. It was tough enough even with the 6" sense foam cushions I had made for the troop seats.

IMO, no seat belts in the back is better... I'd rather be thrown from the vehicle and lets face it... who travels 80 plus miles an hour in their truck. It is more like 30-40 on side roads and 53 on the highway. Less chance of you getting in an accident than someone hitting you. I think the duece would go through them and push the other vehicle out of the way.

I know I do not drive like a nut in the truck in fear that I'm going to kill some fool that pulls out in front of me. My concern is for their well being.

 

[Snarky]

The deuce's passenger capacity for a normal truck is 14 I believe. That's below the requirements for calling something a bus I believe. Also you can't accept any money for the transport, not even diesel money, as that would make it a commercial enterprise. Next the truck is under 26000# with hydraulic brakes.

If i were going to let anyone ride in the back of the deuce, I'da make sure they had at least one person with an intercom that can talk to the driver, incase of emergencies. Although, I'da make sure I had good liability. If you roll the deuce, you're dead too so I wouldn't worry about that too much. I'da mostly worry about some seat belts.

Just make sure you carry less people than what makes you a bus and you're good. The bed of the deuce is designed for passengers, unlike a pickup. There are seats, there is a back bar, it's a lot like riding in the back of a windy land rover defender. If you had lap belts that would stop folks from bouncing out of it. All you need then is for them to be able to talk to the driver, so they can tell you when they have to pee or when one of them falls out the rear.

Here's the Texas Law, your mileage may vary.

"V.T.C.A., Transportation Code 545.414. Riding in Open Beds; Offense
(a) A person commits an offense if the person operates an open-bed pickup truck or an open flatbed truck or draws an open flatbed trailer when a child younger than 18 years of age is occupying the bed of the truck or trailer."


My truck's bed isn't open, it's covered, therefore I would need to comply with seatbelt law, and seatbelt law says seatbelts added on to a vehicle count the same as OEM equipment. My passengers would be 18+, if there was a 17 year old he would be in the cab. More than one? Tough.

 

[Hay Man]

Someone may have already posted this, but here's a website that summarizes state laws about transportation of passengers in truck cargo areas. Although it is not a substitute for legal advice, it may prove useful.

Cargo area laws

 

[saddamsnightmare]

December 11th, 2009.

How about DUKW's? Frequently they are used by tour companies, no doubt with a CDL equipped driver ( and I presume STCW licensed Master), but they are but little different from the deuce except for the boat hull.
Just curious. Also we should consider getting the exemptions passed here in Texas for parade use, although they carry them on duallie trailers behind pickups and call them floats.

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan

 

[m16ty]

I have noticed when hauling kids that it is very easy for a small child to fall through the space in the back of the troop seats. I would recommend that anybody hauling children cover the hole in the seat back or have very strict adult supervision.

 

[paulfarber]

December 11th, 2009.

How about DUKW's? Frequently they are used by tour companies, no doubt with a CDL equipped driver ( and I presume STCW licensed Master), but they are but little different from the deuce except for the boat hull.
Just curious. Also we should consider getting the exemptions passed here in Texas for parade use, although they carry them on duallie trailers behind pickups and call them floats.

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan

Those tour ducks are hulls only. Nothing DUKW exists in them save the hull and running gear. Seat belts, ADA complaint, USCG inspected etc etc etc.

Its neat the the DUKWs are still going.. it sad that they were gutted to have to do it.

 

[swiss]

This information is current as of March 2014,

Link to a summary of the laws as collected by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/cargoareas

State	Restrictions on riding in cargo areas	Who is not covered
Alabama	no state law	no state law
Alaska	no state law	no state law
Arizona	no state law	no state law
Arkansas	yes[SUP]1[/SUP]	employees on duty; people within bodies of trucks in a space intended for merchandise
California	yes	if the person is restrained by a federally approved restraint system; farmer owned vehicle used exclusively within farming land or 1 mile of highway between 1 part to another; parade if not more than 8 miles per hour; emergency situations
Colorado	yes	people sitting in the cargo area if it is fully or partially enclosed on all 4 sides
Connecticut	yes	people 16 and older; people 15 and younger if belted; parades; farming operations; hayrides August through December
Delaware	no state law	no state law
District of Columbia	yes[SUP]1[/SUP]	employees on duty; people riding within truck bodies in a space intended for materials
Florida	yes	all persons 18 and older; persons 17 and younger in an enclosed cargo area; persons 17 and younger on non-limited-access roads unless local law exempts them from the prohibition on minors riding the cargo areas of pickup trucks and flatbeds; persons 17 and younger on non-limited-access roads in a seat fitted with a safety belt that has been added to the pickup or flatbed; employees on duty
Georgia	yes	people 18 and older; people 17 and younger in pickup trucks with covered cargo areas; any pickup truck off the interstate
Hawaii	yes	people may ride in back of pickup trucks if there are no available seats in the cab and the side racks and tailgate are securely closed, and the passengers are seated on the floor and do not attempt to unlash cargo; also exempts life threatening emergencies; parades; employees on duty
Idaho	no state law	no state law
Illinois	no state law	no state law
Indiana	no state law	no state law
Iowa	no state law	no state law
Kansas	yes	people 14 and older; parades; employment; does not apply to vehicles not being operated in the state highway system or within the corporate limits of a city
Kentucky	no state law	no state law
Louisiana	yes	people 12 and older if the truck is being moved on a non-interstate highway; parades moving less than 15 mph; emergencies if the child is with an adult in the cargo area; emergencies while moving on an interstate highway
Maine	yes	people 19 and older; agricultural workers and hunters 18 and younger; parades; and people in OEM installed seats outside passenger compartment
Maryland	yes	people 16 and older; people 15 and younger if the vehicle is traveling 25 mph or less; employees being transported to work sites or people engaged in farming operations; exceptions do not eliminate requirement to use child restraint or belts; inapplicable to pickup trucks with covered cargo areas
Massachusetts	yes	people 12 and older; people 11 and younger if the vehicle is being driven less than 5 miles and less than 5 mph; parades; farming activities
Michigan	yes	18 and older; 17 and younger if the vehicle is moving 15 mph or less; parades; military vehicles; emergency situations; farming; construction
Minnesota	no state law	no state law
Mississippi	no state law	no state law
Missouri	yes	people 18 and older; people 17 and younger if the vehicle is not being operated on a highway which is part of the state or federal highway system or within the corporate limits of any city; exceptions for employment; agricultural activities; parades; where there is a device to keep the passenger from being thrown or falling out of the vehicle; special events; assisting people in a recreational activity; family owned truck with insufficient room in the cab for all passengers; inapplicable to pickup trucks with covered cargo areas
Montana	no state law	no state law
Nebraska	yes	people age 18 or older; parades
Nevada	yes	people age 18 or older; people younger than 18 when the vehicle is used in farming or ranching or if vehicle is used in an authorized parade; vehicles operated on unpaved roads; people riding in areas enclosed by a camper shell
New Hampshire	no state law	no state law
New Jersey	yes	employees engaged in their duties
New Mexico	yes	people 18 and older
New York	yes	inapplicable to trips of 5 miles or less; inapplicable to trips of more than 5 miles if one-third or less of the passengers are standing or if suitable seats are securely attached and there are side rails and a tailgate; inapplicable to trips of more than 5 miles if there are less than 5 persons 17 or younger in the cargo area or if at least one person 18 or older is in the cargo area
North Carolina	yes	people 16 and older; persons 15 and younger if a supervising adult is present in the cargo area; when the child is belted; emergencies; parades; vehicle being used in agriculture; vehicles with permanent overhead structures
North Dakota	no state law	no state law
Ohio	yes	people 16 and older; people 15 and younger if the vehicle is driven less than 25 mph or if the person is seated and belted in an OEM seating position; emergencies; inapplicable to pickup trucks with covered cargo areas
Oklahoma	no state law	no state law
Oregon	yes	people 18 and older; minors secured with a safety belt or harness; parades; minors seated on the floor of the open bed of a motor vehicle in which all available passenger seats are occupied by minors, the tailgate is securely closed and the minor is being transported either in the course and scope of employment or between a hunting camp and hunting site or between hunting sites during hunting season and the minor has a hunting license
Pennsylvania	yes	people 18 and older if the vehicle is traveling less than 35 mph; inapplicable to occupants 17 and younger if the cargo area is enclosed; parades, hunting, and farm operations
Rhode Island	yes	people 16 and older; people 15 and younger who are secured in the cargo area
South Carolina	yes	people 15 and older; people 15 and younger when an adult is present; when the child is belted; parade; emergency situation; agricultural activities; hunting; vehicle has a secured metal tailgate and operated less than 36 mph; vehicle operated in county
South Dakota	no state law	no state law
Tennessee	yes	people 12 and older; people 6-11 in a vehicle being operated off the interstate or state highway system; parades if vehicle going less than 20 mph; agricultural activities; or on city or county roads unless prohibited by local ordinance or resolution
Texas	yes	people 18 and older; vehicles that are the only vehicles owned by members of the household; vehicles in parades, hay rides, or on beaches, or being used in an emergency; vehicles in farm operations used to transport people from field to field or on farm
Utah	yes[Cargo ]	off highway operation; employees performing their duties; people riding in a vehicle space that is intended for any load
Vermont	no state law	no state law
Virginia	yes	people 16 and older; farmers when crossing a highway to go from field to field
Washington	no state law	no state law
West Virginia	no state law	no state law
Wisconsin	yes[SUP]1[/SUP]	inapplicable to enclosed areas; farm operations; parades; deer hunting; employees; people riding in truck bodies in spaces intended for merchandise
Wyoming	no state law	no state law