LMTV or?...

[justin22885]

Where exactly are all these air leaks in a deuce that i hear about? I know they have a soft top so I'd imagine that to be some of the culprit?

 

[snowtrac nome]

Heui pump failure is mostly related to dirty oil. Caterpillar has a retrofit kit that installs a secondary filter between the engine oil supply and the heui pump

last I checked the filter system was only for a c-7

 

[Coffey1]

Deuce has single circuit brakes so compared to air brakes you don't have brakes or at the very least model t brakes.
There's no way I would ever go back to a deuce.

 

[snowtrac nome]

I found data from Cat saying 4% improvement in fuel economy. This is very, very low. I could save more fuel than that just by tweaking my driving habits a tad.

Hmm, it gets the same fuel economy as a 5-ton cargo truck weighing a good 6,000lbs more, why is that? And people are claiming 10-15mpg with the M35A3 using the same engine and the same weight as the LMTV.

the 3116 in the a-3 is not the same engine it is the low hp model you can only safely get about 200 hp out of it and than life will be severely shortened like the 160 hp 12 valve cummins the 170 3116 has a lighter rotating assy that wont take the abuse of lots of fuel and timing,

 

[justin22885]

the 3116 in the a-3 is not the same engine it is the low hp model you can only safely get about 200 hp out of it and than life will be severely shortened like the 160 hp 12 valve cummins the 170 3116 has a lighter rotating assy that wont take the abuse of lots of fuel and timing,

Can they run WVO/WMO with a pre-heater? And is there enough space underneath the cab of an LMTV to install such systems?

 

[snowtrac nome]

They could but I would not mix beyond 10 % and I would filter it real well. It's not really practical up north here as it will get too cold, unless you parked it in a warm shop overnight, Same with used motor oil. Personally I wouldn't run used motor oil in any thing, I make my living fixing stuff for others and don't like to monkey around with my stuff for free. I have seen too many studies of the damage done to parts from particulate matter that cant be removed from used products, and also experienced it my self on my 12 valve b series cummins. at the end of the day at 5 bucks a gallon for heating oil used products are more valuable being used for building heat.

 

[justin22885]

I would be more prone to using waste vegetable oil than WMO, which would only be used as a backup, and I would potentially build a centrifuge to properly and completely filtering it before putting it in a separate storage tank. For the system in the vehicle I would probably use some of the engine coolant through a heat exchanger to warm incoming WVO/WMO fuel and another system for de-gelling the fuel tank. With these modifications it would work fine in cold weather but if the 3116 is a poor candidate to this then I will want an engine that isn't.

Does the LMTV have enough room around the engine to do thing like that?

 

[mkcoen]

I would be more prone to using waste vegetable oil than WMO, which would only be used as a backup, and I would potentially build a centrifuge to properly and completely filtering it before putting it in a separate storage tank. For the system in the vehicle I would probably use some of the engine coolant through a heat exchanger to warm incoming WVO/WMO fuel and another system for de-gelling the fuel tank. With these modifications it would work fine in cold weather but if the 3116 is a poor candidate to this then I will want an engine that isn't.

That's great until you have a little of it left over in the lines or fuel rail that doesn't get preheated and starts clogging everything up when it resolidifies. If you're thinking of a MV and then concerned with either fuel mileage or the cost of fuel then you're looking at the wrong vehicle all together.

 

[Aernan]

the 3116 in the a-3 is not the same engine it is the low hp model you can only safely get about 200 hp out of it and than life will be severely shortened like the 160 hp 12 valve cummins the 170 3116 has a lighter rotating assy that wont take the abuse of lots of fuel and timing,

I'm still doing my best to learn about the different variations of 3116 engines and what is unique (hardware) about them instead of unique (tune). I did find this great history of the FMTV that is worth a read:
https://fmtvtrucks.com/fmtv-history/

According to the article:

The LMTV is a family of 4-wheel (4×4) diesel powered trucks with a 225 HP (A0) or 275 HP (A1) Caterpillar 3116, 3126 and C7 6 cylinder engine. The LMTV has a 2.5 ton payload capacity and consists of the M1078 Cargo, M1079 Van, M1080 chassis and M1081 LVAD models . The M1082 2.5-ton payload trailer is designed to be pulled by LMTV and MTV trucks.

The Medium Tactical Vehicle (MTV) is a family of 6-wheel (6×6) diesel powered trucks with a 290 HP (A0) to 330 HP (A1) Caterpillar 3116, 3126 or C7 6 cylinder engine.

My takeaway from that is the 3116 came in 225 HP and 290 HP versions.

 

[snowtrac nome]

I would be more prone to using waste vegetable oil than WMO, which would only be used as a backup, and I would potentially build a centrifuge to properly and completely filtering it before putting it in a separate storage tank. For the system in the vehicle I would probably use some of the engine coolant through a heat exchanger to warm incoming WVO/WMO fuel and another system for de-gelling the fuel tank. With these modifications it would work fine in cold weather but if the 3116 is a poor candidate to this then I will want an engine that isn't.


Does the LMTV have enough room around the engine to do thing like that?

Here is my take on it (remember I have been there and done that with a 6 b cunmmins) if you want the million mile engine to last a million miles. You run the fuel it was intended run, you change the oil on a regular interval and you run the fluids in it the manufacture intended the engine to use. if you don't care about the life of the motor and like to tinker with it it will burn just about any hydrocarbon you stick in it you can also add a bypsass oil filter so you don't have to change oil as often. I don't care what other folks are saying I would not mix above 10 percent, or run straight veggie oil, the fuel system, no matter what engine is, is designed to run a fuel product that meets a specific viscosity range, and any deviation from that over a long period of operation will cause damage. The old multi fuel is the best candidate for that because of the fuel density compensator, but those had their issues and most have been defeated because uncle sam had changed to jp8. I cant say the 3116 is any less intolerant of off spec fuel than a b series cummins, but I want to drive mine not monkey around with it just to save a few bucks at the pump.

 

[Aernan]

the 3116 in the a-3 is not the same engine it is the low hp model you can only safely get about 200 hp out of it and than life will be severely shortened like the 160 hp 12 valve cummins the 170 3116 has a lighter rotating assy that wont take the abuse of lots of fuel and timing,

Could you shed some light on what the differences are? From my reading I know the max power output is limited by cooling capacity. I could guess some parts that might have changed. Could it be the updated turbo?

 

[snowtrac nome]

The low power engines have a lighter crank with smaller journals and lighter rods, also lower flow rates on the injectors, I would also suspect that there are some cam and piston differences, and a different turbo. I never got into all the differences, but when talking to my buddy at nc he cautioned about adding too much fuel to the low hp models, because of the internal parts of the engine being lighter. 3000 rpm is about all the faster you can spin a 3116 and even at that you risk floating the valves, they kind of have wienny valve springs. which will also make exhaust brakes less effective.

 

[coachgeo]

The low power engines have a lighter crank with smaller journals and lighter rods, also lower flow rates on the injectors, I would also suspect that there are some cam and piston differences, and a different turbo. I never got into all the differences, but when talking to my buddy at nc he cautioned about adding too much fuel to the low hp models, because of the internal parts of the engine being lighter. 3000 rpm is about all the faster you can spin a 3116 and even at that you risk floating the valves, they kind of have wienny valve springs. which will also make exhaust brakes less effective.

What is the LOW and HIGH engine model? Is the 225hp a low and 290hp a High...... or???

Guess one could check part # for a crank and see if same is used in both models?

 

[Aernan]

Here is my take on it (remember I have been there and done that with a 6 b cunmmins) if you want the million mile engine to last a million miles. You run the fuel it was intended run, you change the oil on a regular interval and you run the fluids in it the manufacture intended the engine to use. if you don't care about the life of the motor and like to tinker with it it will burn just about any hydrocarbon you stick in it you can also add a bypsass oil filter so you don't have to change oil as often. I don't care what other folks are saying I would not mix above 10 percent, or run straight veggie oil, the fuel system, no matter what engine is, is designed to run a fuel product that meets a specific viscosity range, and any deviation from that over a long period of operation will cause damage. The old multi fuel is the best candidate for that because of the fuel density compensator, but those had their issues and most have been defeated because uncle sam had changed to jp8. I cant say the 3116 is any less intolerant of off spec fuel than a b series cummins, but I want to drive mine not monkey around with it just to save a few bucks at the pump.

Preface:
I'm building an overland vehicle and the chances of me driving 500k miles in it are slim. I also would like to look at alternative fuels if I can get them cheap and conveniently. Longer oil change intervals sounds great too.

1. Longevity: One of the key reasons diesels get so many miles is the total revolutions of the engine is lower and when used in commercial applications are start and run for hours at a time so the starting cycles are much lower than passenger cars. Assuming I did all the above advice I would still be surprised if I got the full 500k out of the engine.

2. Oil change intervals: I plan on doing oil sample analysis and changing the oil when the folks at the lab say it's time. I have read a huge amount on oil and from what I understand synthetic + additive package is good oil. Trouble is the additives evaporate out of the oil and that's what makes the oil perform well. Regardless if you plan on doing short or long oil change intervals removing the suit from the oil will certainly reduce wear. I would also guess it reduces acidification of the oil (speculation) because the suit is not in contact with the oil in high quantity for long periods. Many gas engines have gotten higher and higher oil change intervals. I believe this is because synthetic oils and additives are much better than dino oils. Since I'm not an actual expert I'm going to do regular intervals until I get the pattern down on wear life of the oil.

3. Manufacturer recommended fluids:

People can really get caught out here. Using the wrong antifreeze with an aluminum radiator used to cause corrosion but now all coolant is aluminum safe. So the advice is meet or beat manufactures spec for all fluids.

I know for certain that the military uses engine oil in the transmission which I find odd but I understand it reduces clutch pack wear by doing firmer shifts and quicker lockup. That said I bet busses with same transmission don't do that and all other auto trans use ATF. My truck came from the previous owner with Royal Purple ATF. It shifts very smooth. Maybe too smooth. ATF will certainly cause quicker wear.

I don't know crap about hydraulic oil. I would guess a good filter, regular changing to avoid acid and water.

Axle Oil the stuff in the hubs and differentials. I would say go with a high moly oil and buy good oils because this is where you can really reduce the frictional loss in the drive train. I've been using AMSOIL in my diffs for years. Seems to help the MPG slightly. Maybe all in my head.

4. Alternative Fuels

From my reading the original diesel engine was designed to run on vegetable oil that farmers could grow themselves. Compression ignition will ignite any oil. The fuel value of diesel is one of the highest you can run in the vehicle so you get a good bang for the buck. Everything else is lower fuel value and will take more fuel to do the same work.

The other thing to keep in mind is the cetane rating because that is the first part of the fuel that burns and heats the cylinder enough to burn the remaining fuel.
Long and very very interesting read here: http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/03/diesel-timing.html

Noise level is affected by cetane content. In the United States, the ASTM Standard Specification D 975 cetane number requirement is a minimum of 40. Consequently, as a culture, we have louder vehicles than Europe where the specification is mandated to a minimum 45. The source of the noise results from the rapidness of the pressure rise. If fuel has a long ignition delay period, then it finally ignites later when the charge temperature is considerably hotter. The hotter environment accelerates ignition. The quickness of this event is the source of the typical clatter we here. When ignition begins sooner, with less delay, the pressure rise is more gradual and quieter. The difference can amount to several decibels – as I have found.

Then the last thing to consider is lubrication. I have not read enough up on this but I know when you cook WVO to make biodiesel you are breaking it down to make it thinner and to make some short chain hydrocarbons that become the cetane rating. So I would speculate that SVO is more lubricating than diesel. Just a guess here.

As snowtrack gnome says. It would be best to combine diesel with other fuel sources for a good burn. In fact that's what the military recommends and diesel in California is B20 (20% biodiesel) so that all agrees.

In the multi fuel engines I believe the regulator changes the amount of fuel used to match the performance of pump diesel. (just use more).

Depending on how you get your SVO, WVO, ATF, WMO you might save a bunch. Looking alibaba a ton of WVO already filtered works out to be about $0.60 a gallon before shipping fees which I have not looked into.

My plan is to tune the heck out of the 3116 and drive train to get the best MPG I can. Then when it's as good as it gets I'll look farther into WVO for long distance driving. I have run a Mercedes 300TD wagon on Biodiesel and I ended up paying more for B100 than pump diesel and it performed worse. SVO would be even worse.

I think there might be one last option for cheaper fuels. I believe there is "off road only" diesel. but I don't know the legality of transporting it to the "off road" site to use.

 

[Aernan]

I would be more prone to using waste vegetable oil than WMO, which would only be used as a backup, and I would potentially build a centrifuge to properly and completely filtering it before putting it in a separate storage tank. For the system in the vehicle I would probably use some of the engine coolant through a heat exchanger to warm incoming WVO/WMO fuel and another system for de-gelling the fuel tank. With these modifications it would work fine in cold weather but if the 3116 is a poor candidate to this then I will want an engine that isn't.

Does the LMTV have enough room around the engine to do thing like that?

The LMTV has a bunch of room and it's surrounded by rubber curtains. If you do plan on doing any type of waste oil conversion the best option is to store it in it's own tank that is heated then heat the complete fuel system (coolant water jacket). Then also have startup/shutdown controller that switches fuels mid drive and allows for manual switchover back to pump diesel so you can start in cold weather. If you live somewhere that is below freezing for most of the year WVO is probably not a great option. Or you could just run it in the summer months.

Diesel is some $3.30 in california a because of stupid use taxes. I'm hoping it's cheaper where you live.

 

[Aernan]

The low power engines have a lighter crank with smaller journals and lighter rods, also lower flow rates on the injectors, I would also suspect that there are some cam and piston differences, and a different turbo. I never got into all the differences, but when talking to my buddy at nc he cautioned about adding too much fuel to the low hp models, because of the internal parts of the engine being lighter. 3000 rpm is about all the faster you can spin a 3116 and even at that you risk floating the valves, they kind of have wienny valve springs. which will also make exhaust brakes less effective.

Well this is a good place to start digging. I suspect the only difference being a newer better turbo. It is entirely possible that the higher HP engines are also bored to 6.7 instead of 6.6 to match up with the 3127 bore size. That could account for a bit of hp right there. From other reading 4% performance for going ECU instead of mechanical so the extra power is all displacement.

 

[coachgeo]

I hope to modify aerodynamics some to help with MPG. Such as an airdam in front and skirts on side. Aerodynamics is also why plan to have not such a tall box on back. Oh and all dams and skirts will be removable for off-roading portion of the trip.

 

[coachgeo]

The LMTV has a bunch of room and it's surrounded by rubber curtains. If you do plan on doing any type of waste oil conversion the best option is to store it in it's own tank that is heated then heat the complete fuel system (coolant water jacket). Then also have startup/shutdown controller that switches fuels mid drive and allows for manual switchover back to pump diesel so you can start in cold weather. If you live somewhere that is below freezing for most of the year WVO is probably not a great option. Or you could just run it in the summer months. ...... Diesel is some $3.30 in california a because of stupid use taxes. I'm hoping it's cheaper where you live.

Reality...... you wont find WVO on the road. Two.... you will find it hard as crap to get it in your own area unless you established places to get it years ago and have been actively doing so for a long while. Most WVO is tied up in contracts between restaurant and oil Render. Many counties and/or states have Oil Render transport regulations now as well. The WVO game is pretty much over. Been there/done that. Ship sailed.

 

[porkysplace]

Preface:
I'm building an overland vehicle and the chances of me driving 500k miles in it are slim. I also would like to look at alternative fuels if I can get them cheap and conveniently. Longer oil change intervals sounds great too.

1. Longevity: One of the key reasons diesels get so many miles is the total revolutions of the engine is lower and when used in commercial applications are start and run for hours at a time so the starting cycles are much lower than passenger cars. Assuming I did all the above advice I would still be surprised if I got the full 500k out of the engine.

2. Oil change intervals: I plan on doing oil sample analysis and changing the oil when the folks at the lab say it's time. I have read a huge amount on oil and from what I understand synthetic + additive package is good oil. Trouble is the additives evaporate out of the oil and that's what makes the oil perform well. Regardless if you plan on doing short or long oil change intervals removing the suit from the oil will certainly reduce wear. I would also guess it reduces acidification of the oil (speculation) because the suit is not in contact with the oil in high quantity for long periods. Many gas engines have gotten higher and higher oil change intervals. I believe this is because synthetic oils and additives are much better than dino oils. Since I'm not an actual expert I'm going to do regular intervals until I get the pattern down on wear life of the oil.

3. Manufacturer recommended fluids:

People can really get caught out here. Using the wrong antifreeze with an aluminum radiator used to cause corrosion but now all coolant is aluminum safe. So the advice is meet or beat manufactures spec for all fluids.

I know for certain that the military uses engine oil in the transmission which I find odd but I understand it reduces clutch pack wear by doing firmer shifts and quicker lockup. That said I bet busses with same transmission don't do that and all other auto trans use ATF. My truck came from the previous owner with Royal Purple ATF. It shifts very smooth. Maybe too smooth. ATF will certainly cause quicker wear.

I don't know crap about hydraulic oil. I would guess a good filter, regular changing to avoid acid and water.

Axle Oil the stuff in the hubs and differentials. I would say go with a high moly oil and buy good oils because this is where you can really reduce the frictional loss in the drive train. I've been using AMSOIL in my diffs for years. Seems to help the MPG slightly. Maybe all in my head.

4. Alternative Fuels

From my reading the original diesel engine was designed to run on vegetable oil that farmers could grow themselves. Compression ignition will ignite any oil. The fuel value of diesel is one of the highest you can run in the vehicle so you get a good bang for the buck. Everything else is lower fuel value and will take more fuel to do the same work.

The other thing to keep in mind is the cetane rating because that is the first part of the fuel that burns and heats the cylinder enough to burn the remaining fuel.
Long and very very interesting read here: http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/03/diesel-timing.html


Then the last thing to consider is lubrication. I have not read enough up on this but I know when you cook WVO to make biodiesel you are breaking it down to make it thinner and to make some short chain hydrocarbons that become the cetane rating. So I would speculate that SVO is more lubricating than diesel. Just a guess here.

As snowtrack gnome says. It would be best to combine diesel with other fuel sources for a good burn. In fact that's what the military recommends and diesel in California is B20 (20% biodiesel) so that all agrees.

In the multi fuel engines I believe the regulator changes the amount of fuel used to match the performance of pump diesel. (just use more).

Depending on how you get your SVO, WVO, ATF, WMO you might save a bunch. Looking alibaba a ton of WVO already filtered works out to be about $0.60 a gallon before shipping fees which I have not looked into.

My plan is to tune the heck out of the 3116 and drive train to get the best MPG I can. Then when it's as good as it gets I'll look farther into WVO for long distance driving. I have run a Mercedes 300TD wagon on Biodiesel and I ended up paying more for B100 than pump diesel and it performed worse. SVO would be even worse.

I think there might be one last option for cheaper fuels. I believe there is "off road only" diesel. but I don't know the legality of transporting it to the "off road" site to use.

The military specs motor oil in the transmission to keep it simple and only have one oil in the field , they don't care about replacing transmissions. ATF is Allisons choice and won't shorten the transmission life .

 

[Aernan]

The low power engines have a lighter crank with smaller journals and lighter rods, also lower flow rates on the injectors, I would also suspect that there are some cam and piston differences, and a different turbo. I never got into all the differences, but when talking to my buddy at nc he cautioned about adding too much fuel to the low hp models, because of the internal parts of the engine being lighter. 3000 rpm is about all the faster you can spin a 3116 and even at that you risk floating the valves, they kind of have wienny valve springs. which will also make exhaust brakes less effective.

Ok after some poking around I found auction sites with both the 225 hp and the 290 hp versions. The relative serials are:
7AG05095 and 4RJ02137 (SS member).

Searching this site: https://parts.cat.com/AjaxCATPartLo...erialNumber=3RJ02548&keyword=crankshaft&link=
for the serial and the term "crankshaft" it returns cranks rated for 225 and 290 at 2600 RPM.

I guess with further digging I could find all the unique parts. Sounds like I'm stuck in the low HP territory with mine.