M35 or M211 for a first deuce?

[Brownac1983]

Hey guys, I'm still on a quest for a good deal on a first deuce. I've been looking for about a year and just barely missed a few nice ones. Now I'm looking at 3 that seem to be pretty good deals, an M35A1, an M35A2 and an M211 gasser. I haven't been to look over any of them yet. I'm awaiting pictures. All things considered, and assuming no major issues with either and based on the limited info below, please advise which you would choose and why. I will say that I have extensive experience with gas engines but have never messed with diesels much, though I would like to learn. If I do go with an M35, I don't want the LDT, I want a smoker. Here is what I know about them so far:

M211 - 1951 model, original engine recently rebuilt, everything supposedly works, runs good but needs batteries and wheel cylinders

M35A1 - 1968 model, 36K miles, new 10x20 tires, has cab heater and winch, needs batteries

M35A2 - 1974 model, LD-465 engine, no winch, second from bottom here: http://www.whiteowl.com/25TONCLASSTRUCKS.html

Thanks in advance for any advice.
-Drew

 

[Jeepsinker]

Go with the m35 series. They are simple and more reliable than the gasser trucks. Also note that the M211 has twice as many wheel cylinders as the M35 trucks, and thus it will cost twice the money, take twice the maintenance, and twice the headache, and that's just on brakes. Also consider that parts are much more readily available for the M35. For your first truck... Definitely M35, and don't be afraid of the turbo.

 

[ATPTac]

I was in the same boat as you when getting into MV's, I'm a tech at a dealership and have little to no experience with diesel. If you are even remotely mechanically inclined and have any automotive experience, picking up on diesel is relatively easy. That being said, I wanted a M35A2 mostly for the multifuel, but also I just wanted a diesel platform. Ultimately nobody can tell you what to get or what you like other than you.

The best advice I can give is to get something that is in overall good shape, and don't worry about small things like leaks. Being that I work on cars already, I absolutely loathe rust, so one of my personal criteria when looking at trucks was that they had to have very little to no rust. Whatever route you decide to take, after you buy the truck make sure you go through and inspect the brake system before doing anything else to the truck. I'd rather have a non-running truck than one that runs but won't stop. And to answer your initial question, I would personally go with the A2, but that's just me.

I'm close to you (I'm in south Charlotte) if you ever want to get together and see/drive our truck (she is currently down for repairs, one of the reasons I'm stressing check your brakes, but should be back up and running shortly).

 

[ivbeenrokd]

I would recommend an M35. Why do you prefer not to have a turbo?

 

[Brownac1983]

Thanks for the replies everybody. I'll look towards the multi fuel. I like that factor as I have some good sources of used oil.

I would recommend an M35. Why do you prefer not to have a turbo?

Probably a stupid reason, but mostly for the smoke factor, that and I prefer as few moving parts as possible. How reliable are the turbo engines, and what is the replacement cost of the turbo if it were to fail? Is it possible, in the event of turbo failure on one of the engines where the turbo is present purely to make the exhaust cleaner, to reverse retrofit to the LD configuration?

 

[patracy]

If you like topping hills at 25-35mph go with a non-turbo.

The engines are pretty much the same, turbo or not, minus a timing change and fueling.

$150-300.

One could put a turbo'ed engine back to non-turbo specs, but it's not a roadside affair.

 

[Brownac1983]

If you like topping hills at 25-35mph go with a non-turbo.

The engines are pretty much the same, turbo or not, minus a timing change and fueling.

$150-300.

One could put a turbo'ed engine back to non-turbo specs, but it's not a roadside affair.

Does the turbo make a noticeable difference in power? I was under the impression from reading some other threads on here that the only purpose of the turbo on the LDT engine was to clean up the exhaust smoke and that the only turbo that added performance was on the LDH engines. If it makes more power, or can be made to make more power than the LD, I would go with the LDT. I just didn't want to own and maintain a turbo for the sole purpose of having cleaner emissions.

 

[NDT]

The LD engine performs as well or better than the LDT, and has the smoke trail so you can see where you have been.

 

[AZDeuce]

Theres not a whole lot of "maintenance" to a turbo, as long as it ain't cracked, or leaking oil you're not going to notice it at all except your truck WON'T blow black smoke like an old steam locomotive, that's the whole purpose of the turbo - cleaner emmisions - If the truck with the winch is turbo'd that would be the one I recommend, the winch has saved my butt a couple of times out in the desert, wouldn't have a big truck without one. You don't want to pay a tow company to come out to the boonies and pull you out, the expense would pay for their kid's college plan. Well, almost, but you wouldn't like the bill. My M35A2 ("C" turbo) didn't have a winch, but I added one as soon as I could.

 

[patracy]

Does the turbo make a noticeable difference in power? I was under the impression from reading some other threads on here that the only purpose of the turbo on the LDT engine was to clean up the exhaust smoke and that the only turbo that added performance was on the LDH engines. If it makes more power, or can be made to make more power than the LD, I would go with the LDT. I just didn't want to own and maintain a turbo for the sole purpose of having cleaner emissions.

LD engine = 126hp
1C and 1D = 134 to 140hp

As rated from the factory. While 10hp doesn't sound like much. When you're talking nearly a 10% power increase, it does add up in a 13K lb vehicle.

Turbo'ed multifuels smoke enough. I've had a turbo fail in one of my trucks. (Thankfully it was that terrible C turbo and I swapped to a D turbo) That's the only turbo related work I've done to "maintain" any of my trucks.

Why do you want so much smoke?

 

[Brownac1983]

I'm close to you (I'm in south Charlotte) if you ever want to get together and see/drive our truck (she is currently down for repairs, one of the reasons I'm stressing check your brakes, but should be back up and running shortly).

Thanks ATPTac. I might take you up on that. I'm stuck at work offshore right now but I'll be back in a few weeks. I'd like to look at yours before I pull the trigger on one.

 

[Brownac1983]

Theres not a whole lot of "maintenance" to a turbo, as long as it ain't cracked, or leaking oil you're not going to notice it at all except your truck WON'T blow black smoke like an old steam locomotive, that's the whole purpose of the turbo - cleaner emmisions - If the truck with the winch is turbo'd that would be the one I recommend, the winch has saved my butt a couple of times out in the desert, wouldn't have a big truck without one. You don't want to pay a tow company to come out to the boonies and pull you out, the expense would pay for their kid's college plan. Well, almost, but you wouldn't like the bill. My M35A2 ("C" turbo) didn't have a winch, but I added one as soon as I could.

There will definitely be a winch one way or another. I'd prefer to buy one with a working winch, but if I found the right deal on a nice WO/W I would add either an original or aftermarket electric winch later. One of the main jobs for the truck will be pulling trees so a winch will help a lot. From reading some other threads here I'm figuring the winch value at about $1250, so I'm looking for about that much of a discount on a WO/W over a comparable W/W truck to make the addition worthwhile. Having done the conversion yourself, does that sound like a reasonable estimate?

 

[Brownac1983]

LD engine = 126hp
1C and 1D = 134 to 140hp

As rated from the factory. While 10hp doesn't sound like much. When you're talking nearly a 10% power increase, it does add up in a 13K lb vehicle.

Turbo'ed multifuels smoke enough. I've had a turbo fail in one of my trucks. (Thankfully it was that terrible C turbo and I swapped to a D turbo) That's the only turbo related work I've done to "maintain" any of my trucks.

Why do you want so much smoke?

Other than having one less moving part, no reason for the smoke really, except for looks. I wouldn't turn down a good deal on an LDT if it came along. As far as "turning up the fuel", will you get about the same response out of an LD and LDT or is there more power to be had with the LDT (is the LDT capable of more and just detuned for emissions, or is the turbo only big enough to support the factory tune, and if so will the turbo become a choke point if I do turn up the fuel)? I've read several threads about converting from the LDT to LDH engine, but that's more than I want to mess with in the short term. Is the LDH turbo able to be added to the existing LDT engine without major modification, or are there any larger turbos that would come close to bolting on? I've also read about people finding Deuces with the LDH installed, how uncommon is that?

 

[patracy]

Smoke = unburnt fuel = high EGTs

It's fun for a little while, but it gets old quick.

No on the turning up the fuel on a LD vs LDT. There's more power to be had (although we're talking about 10-30hp realistically tops).

LDH? You mean LDS? The LDS turbo won't "bolt on" without some modifications. And performance won't be worth it.

LDS swapped deuces aren't that common.

 

[porkysplace]

There will definitely be a winch one way or another. I'd prefer to buy one with a working winch, but if I found the right deal on a nice WO/W I would add either an original or aftermarket electric winch later. One of the main jobs for the truck will be pulling trees so a winch will help a lot. From reading some other threads here I'm figuring the winch value at about $1250, so I'm looking for about that much of a discount on a WO/W over a comparable W/W truck to make the addition worthwhile. Having done the conversion yourself, does that sound like a reasonable estimate?

Are you planing on pulling trees after ther are cut down or refering to pulling stumps ?
If your planing on pulling stumps , unless they are really small you will be further ahead to get a stump grinder.

 

[wreckerman893]

I have an M275 with the non-turbo engine. I've pulled several trailers back from Redstone with it and there are a couple of hills between there and the farm. The engine gets hot fast in a hard pull and if you don't know how to drive it you will melt it down. On flat land it runs just as good as a turbo truck. A non-turbo engine will make you deaf fast unless you install a muffler. The turbo trucks don't require a muffler because (in some states) a turbo is considered a muffling device.
As for making smoke you prob don't want to open that can of worms with the local LEO's. Some states have "visible emission" laws and will issue you a ticket if they see too much smoke. You might beat it in court but it will still cost you time and money. Black smoke does not equate to more power, it equates to unburned fuel (money) going out the exhaust pipe.

 

[cattlerepairman]

There will definitely be a winch one way or another. I'd prefer to buy one with a working winch, but if I found the right deal on a nice WO/W I would add either an original or aftermarket electric winch later. One of the main jobs for the truck will be pulling trees so a winch will help a lot.

I read this as either pulling trees down or pulling cut tree trunks from A to B. The stock winch on the M35A2 is driven via drive shaft (as opposed to hydraulic on the A3) with an aluminum shear pin as the only safety feature.

I like this winch and I think it is great for its intended use as a once-in-a-while recovery aid.

As a single operator in the boonies with the truck, I am ok with occasional ''work'' use of the winch. Using the winch safely requires one to get in and out of the cab often (others may argue that there is not even a way to do it safely if you are only one around). I would not want to use the stock winch day in day out, hours on end, to move trees. Too slow, too easy to foul it up, too tempting to resort to short cuts that I would likely regret.

You may want to also compare with an A3 w/w for its hydraulic winch and other amenities, or even a 900 series 5-ton. Worth at least a calculation, taking into account the cost for a commercial grade electric winch and the benefits of younger trucks.

 

[Brownac1983]

Are you planing on pulling trees after ther are cut down or refering to pulling stumps ?
If your planing on pulling stumps , unless they are really small you will be further ahead to get a stump grinder.

No stumps, I'd use the winch more for pulling them in the right direction as we're cutting them and then drag the trunks with the truck. I do it now with my F-250 but could use a little more weight for the bigger trees. We cut 8 or 10 a year for firewood and I have some shooting lanes to clear.

 

[Brownac1983]

I read this as either pulling trees down or pulling cut tree trunks from A to B. The stock winch on the M35A2 is driven via drive shaft (as opposed to hydraulic on the A3) with an aluminum shear pin as the only safety feature.

I like this winch and I think it is great for its intended use as a once-in-a-while recovery aid.

As a single operator in the boonies with the truck, I am ok with occasional ''work'' use of the winch. Using the winch safely requires one to get in and out of the cab often (others may argue that there is not even a way to do it safely if you are only one around). I would not want to use the stock winch day in day out, hours on end, to move trees. Too slow, too easy to foul it up, too tempting to resort to short cuts that I would likely regret.

You may want to also compare with an A3 w/w for its hydraulic winch and other amenities, or even a 900 series 5-ton. Worth at least a calculation, taking into account the cost for a commercial grade electric winch and the benefits of younger trucks.

I'd buy a 5-ton in a heartbeat if registration wasn't such a hassle. I've looked into it and it appears in NC i would have to register it as a commercial truck, get a class B (I think) CDL and keep a log. At least, that's how I read it. If anybody is running a 5-ton privately in NC I'd like very much to hear about what hoops you've had to jump through and how it's registered. It will need to be road legal for traveling between home and the land and occasional recreational driving. If I could do that with a 5-ton without too much hassle I would, but having a deuce that's under the 26,000lb GVWR looks like it will be a lot less trouble as far as the DMV goes.

The exception to that being if I could find a 5-ton box truck with a XM820 or shop body, I could turn the back into a camper and register it as a class B recreational vehicle. In that case all I'd have to do is test for the CDL. I'm keeping that option in mind, but haven't seen any great deals come up on one of those, and when they do come up there usually isn't a winch on them.

 

[Brownac1983]

Smoke = unburnt fuel = high EGTs

It's fun for a little while, but it gets old quick.

No on the turning up the fuel on a LD vs LDT. There's more power to be had (although we're talking about 10-30hp realistically tops).

LDH? You mean LDS? The LDS turbo won't "bolt on" without some modifications. And performance won't be worth it.

LDS swapped deuces aren't that common.

Yes, LDS was what I meant. Thanks for the info. If it will keep the exhaust temp down I will look toward the LDT turbo. I was thinking they had no benefit to the engine other than making the exhaust look better.