M35a2 block heater

[tm america]

it's not about you or me being wrong or being proved wrong it's about getting the correct info out there so the ss members can make a properly informed decision on which type is best for them and they way they use their truck.if anyone has a pic of the back of a water pump housing showing no hole i will retrect that statement to .i would do this so i dont miss inform anyone that reads this thread.helping out other ss members is the only reason i post to the threads not to be wrong or right .i am in the auto industry and i understand the effects of bad info as it spreads

 

[greenjeepster]

Dang...you are going to force my hand into yanking the water pump off of my truck and take a picture of the back, aren't you

Maybe I should just start dissembling the entire truck now... when you have a question I will have a file photo picture for you...

I can very easily explain where we both went wrong on this: I was thinking in terms of an automobile which has a fully closed thermo.... you were too. I knew that the back of the water pump was not open to the head, but did not make the connection that the thermo would have to be different because the loop cannot ever be closed off. On a car with a fully closed thermo they have the hole through the water pump which is why its thermo can be closed off. We both went wrong for the same reasons...just went different ways with it.

My hypothesis is that any 600 watt heater is going to heat the block no matter where in the cooling system it is placed. However I think that because of the proximity of the heater in the water pump to the intake for the radiator a percentage of the heat will be lost to the radiator resulting in a lower peak temp than the 600 watt heater placed in a freeze plug. The heater placed in the block will not experience this same loss due to the thermosiphon pulling the cold water up from the inlet from the oil cooler and forcing warm water out through the thermostat housing....that current will cause the warmer water to by pass the radiator inlet in the water pump resulting in less loss to the radiator.

 

[tm america]

ok here are the temps
outside air=35 ground temp =30 front diff =29.5
my heater is in the hole just above the water pump temp at heater =132
front of intake =92
middle of intake=85
back of intake =79
tube near oil cooler=45
water pump=42
rad =46
center of block =50
front of head=53
front of block below head =51
temp at air intake =92
coolant temp in rad =60
temp of oil inside head at oil fill cap=60
these temp will vary as the block water pump head and intake are different thicknesses and some are different metals . the minimum temp increase of the engine parts vs the temp of the front diff was 12.5 degrees .the temp increase at the critical parts like intake was an average of 21.75 degrees the average temp of the motor was 51.25 this did not include the area where the heater was or the rad.as they are not important to starting the truck. my guess is the average temp of the water inside the engine is around 95-100 degrees in order to keep the outside pieces at those temps with the amount of heat loose you have from the metal to air . these temps are a great improvement over 29.5 degrees and in block heater may heat the block better but wont heat the intake air as well as this did

 

[tm america]

oh also inside temps of engine parts will be the same as the coolant temp which would have to be around 95-100 to get outside readings that high.it is no wonder my truck starts faster at 0 with the block heater than it does at 70 with out it. the internal parts are warmer with the block heater than they are without

 

[tm america]

i have been working on cars for over 20 yrs and i have not seen one single vehicle that doesnt bypass the thermostat.some have bleed holes in the t star itself some have bypass hoses some use the heater hoses but all are bypassed.why becuase the water pump has to be able to move water at all times to prevent hot spots in the engine and to keep from building excessive pressure in the engine . also it has to be able to bleed air from the block and fill the space with water . if this cant happen it will blow the head gaskets and overheat the engine. this is a huge issue with many modern engines if the air bleeds are not opened when filling the system the engine will over heat and blow.so dont guess at what i knew i knew without a doupt that the system bypassed the thermostat either by a hole in it or by a tube .i didnt know that it was as wide open as it is .ussually the bypass holes are not as large.

 

[RangerDave]

WOW - gone for a couple of days and the carnage continues.... I didn't expect such a "heated" debate....

What I asked is if ANYONE had tried placing a heater in the oil cooler because I had not heard of it done until I saw that the coolant heater I picked up referenced placing it in that location for Mack and Caterpillar engines - see attached.

So - I'm NOT trying to mislead/misinform/otherwise - I just asked a question and didn't expect to get subject to a rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerDave
I picked up a 1000 watt heater today and looked at the directions inside. It showed a couple of engines and in both cases it referenced locating the heater in the oil cooler housing (drilling and tapping if necessary). I haven't looked to see if there is a plug large enough there, but has anyone else thought of that?

There is a 3/4 inch drain plug on the oil cooler. I think it is a better location than the water pump.

TM: The movement you describe as convection is thermosiphon. Convection on its own is just the movement of heat.... The cool water being pulled in that you describe is caused by the hot water moving away and that is thermosiphon.



they dont make oil heater that use a water heater type element there is a good reason. the debate is real simple someone is posting things that are incorrect . and this can make someone make a misinformed decision of what type is best for them. it doesnt matter to me which type you choose it is your truck i just would like the member to have the right info so they able to make the best desicion for them .people have experience with all different types of block heater the best info comes from guys that are actually using the different ones available. rather than guessing at how they will work. i have a screw in block heater in the water pump of my deuce and i know how it works.i also have a freeze plug heater in my tractor . i also had a heater hose type on my f250 and i am familiar with how each type works and the positives and negatives of all three.these are the facts all heat the coolant . heater hose type use a pump that can fail that the other types dont have . the freeze plug type can blow out of the block as the retaining devise can rust or loosen from heat cycles the screw in type has neithe of these problems they all have a heating element that can fail .the heater hose type is most often the first to fail since the pump is needed to move water if it fails the heating element will overheat. the freeze plug and heater hose type can cause major leak points that did not excist before installing them. the screw in type doesnt do this .like i said they all heat the coolant .all suffer from the same problems with the rad disapaiting heat but a winter front ussually fixes this.

If you read the installation instructions, the manufacturer seems so confident at the permanency of the location as to justify drilling and tapping the oil cooler port to accommodate the coolant heater in the COOLANT side of the oil cooler.

Like I asked, IF someone has tried this HOW did it work for you?

 

[tm america]

putting it anywhere in the coolant is gonna be fine .putting it in the oil cooler housing would probably do a better job heating the oil as well as still heating the coolant .as the hot spot from the heater would be closer to the oil ..i had not thought of putting it there but i like having it closer to the intake .i feel heating the air going into the engine is just as important as heating the engine block.

the oil cooler housing gets heated either way as there is coolant in that location. i just feel having the hot spoy near the intake helps heat the air better. and thus makes starting faster possible. the temps i took show this.
i would be interested in seeing temps from all the different types pf block heaters installed in different locations .but in the end heating the top of the block,head and intake are the most critical thing to heat in order for the engine to be able to ignite.heating the oil is important to so the engine can turn over fast enough to. but the oil will always get warmed via the oil cooler or the warm engine transfering heat to it,

 

[Divemaster920]

Please enlighten me on the location of the 3/4" coolant drain plug on the oil cooler.

 

[tm america]

there is a drian on the oil cooler on my engine i'm not sure it is 3/4 inch .it looked more like 1/2 to me when i was up there taking temps yesterday.and even if it is 3/4 inch you still need around 3 inches straight in without anything in the way .i dont know that it is like that in that location

 

[greenjeepster]

Didn't measure it but this is what mine looks like... It is either 3/4 or 1 inch.

 

[tm america]

mine has a drain cock in that location .has anyone messured the depth of the hole to see if it is even possible to put the block heater there

 

[greenjeepster]

I get almost 6 inches deep.

 

[tm america]

what was the measurement of the threads to?6inchs deep at the same diameter of the hole at the threads?if so you could put the 1000 watt heater there

 

[Divemaster920]

I think you will be in for a surprise.

 

[tm america]

whats the surprize divemaster have you tried it it that spot

 

[Divemaster920]

If you are going to test your oil on a regular basis that is an easy place to get it.

 

[tm america]

ah i see that would make sense i never opened my drain in that location .thanks for the info divemaster

 

[Divemaster920]

pic

 

[markmontana]

pic

Good idea.... thanks

Dave

 

[tm america]

people will bad mouth anything anyone build thats no reason not to build it or sell it .someone that doesnt understand how something works or hasnt tried it doesnt hold alot of weight in my book and in most peoples eyes .they do work and work very nicely .not knowing how something works doesnt mean it doesnt work nor does it mean you should bad mouth and call names .i took temps off my engine while using the block heater and did before and after tests as you did in your videos the results were the same and very conclusive.if someone wants to pick something apart with theories and not facts and tests using the item in question .that only shows those are opinions and not fact based .futher more there is no reason the guys that have these heaters in their trucks with great luck should have to hear someone that doesnt even have a block heater talking bad about them.the world will always be full of debates is the sky blue is the world flat .this is human nature . for the rest of us that want to make improvements to our truck will keep coming up with new ideas and throw them out there hoping to make the world better for the rest of the world.some ideas might be right on the first time other might need to be worked on this is how technolgy works.