M35a2 Deuce NO START

[85J]

Hi, I have an M35a2 that has been sitting for about 12 or more years. Only previous history I have is that it was running when parked. Some other guys were supposedly able to jump it and get it to barely run on starting fluid about a year ago. I have read hours of threads and have tried all of the things that I can think of.

The truck cranks great with fresh batteries.
I have:

1. freed up the fuel shut off
2. replaced old diesel
3. verified that the in tank electric pump works
4. pulled center bolt in the top of the injector pump and it appears to be working fine
5. rebuilt all injector and they pop and chatter great at 3,000 PSI

When I had all of the fuel lines off to rebuild the injectors I cranked the truck and the IP squirts fuel from all 6 of the ports great. I did notice that it would squirt strong for the first or so revolution around the IP and then the pressure would drop off somewhat. Is that normal?

After rebuilding the injectors and putting them back in I cracked the hard lines at the injectors, and cranked the engine with pedal to the floor. I was able to get some fuel from the lines but never a consistent or good flow. Everywhere I have read says you don't/can't bleed the fuel system after the IP. I know that the IP has fuel because it squirted good with no lines on it.

I have cranked and cranked on the truck but it never seems to try to fire at all. I tried about one squirt of starting fluid but it just seemed to knock so I stopped.

I'm at a loss as to what to do next, besides put a new engine in it, so I figured I would throw up a thread looking for help.

Thanks,
Justin

 

[rustystud]

Hi, I have an M35a2 that has been sitting for about 12 or more years. Only previous history I have is that it was running when parked. Some other guys were supposedly able to jump it and get it to barely run on starting fluid about a year ago. I have read hours of threads and have tried all of the things that I can think of.

The truck cranks great with fresh batteries.
I have:

1. freed up the fuel shut off
2. replaced old diesel
3. verified that the in tank electric pump works
4. pulled center bolt in the top of the injector pump and it appears to be working fine
5. rebuilt all injector and they pop and chatter great at 3,000 PSI

When I had all of the fuel lines off to rebuild the injectors I cranked the truck and the IP squirts fuel from all 6 of the ports great. I did notice that it would squirt strong for the first or so revolution around the IP and then the pressure would drop off somewhat. Is that normal?

After rebuilding the injectors and putting them back in I cracked the hard lines at the injectors, and cranked the engine with pedal to the floor. I was able to get some fuel from the lines but never a consistent or good flow. Everywhere I have read says you don't/can't bleed the fuel system after the IP. I know that the IP has fuel because it squirted good with no lines on it.

I have cranked and cranked on the truck but it never seems to try to fire at all. I tried about one squirt of starting fluid but it just seemed to knock so I stopped.

I'm at a loss as to what to do next, besides put a new engine in it, so I figured I would throw up a thread looking for help.

Thanks,
Justin

You don't mention it, but did you replace all the fuel filters when you changed out the fuel ? Also when you had the injectors out, did you crank over the engine to see if there was any compression ? It should have spurted out air at least. I would also have squirted in some engine oil in each cylinder to help seal up the piston rings. Also check the air filter and hoses.
Remember a diesel only needs three things to fire off.
1. Air
2. Fuel
3. Compression
If you have that then you should have a running engine.

 

[DaneGer21]

Maybe a weak Hydraulic Head paired with rebuilt injectors and now the fuel injection pressure isn’t high enough to pop off the injectors.

 

[Floridianson]

You might try and check the delivery valve. Easy to check / clean and there are posts about it with pics. Also two hole injectors should be set at 3500.

 

[85J]

You don't mention it, but did you replace all the fuel filters when you changed out the fuel ? Also when you had the injectors out, did you crank over the engine to see if there was any compression ? It should have spurted out air at least. I would also have squirted in some engine oil in each cylinder to help seal up the piston rings. Also check the air filter and hoses.
Remember a diesel only needs three things to fire off.
1. Air
2. Fuel
3. Compression
If you have that then you should have a running engine.

I did not change out the fuel filters. I have a set of filters but I had them lined up for a different truck and figured I could do that after I get the truck running. Will a new set of fuel filters effect the situation? With as much fuel I have pumped through the IP whatever old fuel was in the system is gone. I did not crank the engine with no injectors; because, I have no diesel compression tester.

You might try and check the delivery valve. Easy to check / clean and there are posts about it with pics. Also two hole injectors should be set at 3500.

It has been a few months so I will verify that the fuel shutoff still moves freely and then check/clean the delivery valve for the first time.
After that I'll crank and see what happens.

Thanks everyone.

 

[rustystud]

I did not change out the fuel filters. I have a set of filters but I had them lined up for a different truck and figured I could do that after I get the truck running. Will a new set of fuel filters effect the situation? With as much fuel I have pumped through the IP whatever old fuel was in the system is gone. I did not crank the engine with no injectors; because, I have no diesel compression tester.




It has been a few months so I will verify that the fuel shutoff still moves freely and then check/clean the delivery valve for the first time.
After that I'll crank and see what happens.

Thanks everyone.

You don't need a compression tester to see if your getting compression coming out the injector hole. Just put your finger on it. It should blow that finger right off the hole fast. If not then you have compression problems like sticking valves or rings not seating. That is also why I said to add some oil to each hole.

 

[85J]

You don't need a compression tester to see if your getting compression coming out the injector hole. Just put your finger on it. It should blow that finger right off the hole fast. If not then you have compression problems like sticking valves or rings not seating. That is also why I said to add some oil to each hole.

If cleaning the delivery valve yields nothing then I will pull the injectors back off and try that.

 

[Floridianson]

Thought you said the injectors were popping at 3000. Worse case its the button and there was a thread where we measured the throw of the plunger.

 

[dmetalmiki]

You did say the flow slowed after the first few throws,
Well then, That could well be the filters clogging after relaxing.
Change those filters for a good consistent flow.

 

[dmetalmiki]

And a thought..Check the 'Lift' of the quill under the bolt atop the Hydraulic Head, (Because IF the button has fallen of the quill there will be a 'stroke' BUT not quite enough to provide the proper injection pressure to start.
Once running a truck will run ok, Untill you let the RPM's fall, Then...Cuts out.

If you do try to start on a fluid, DO NOT ( EVER ),use Ether!!.
Buy a can of GT50 (or similar) WITH Teflon in it.
No bangs or F...s...A SMOOTH controlled start with no knocking.

 

[85J]

Thank all of you for your suggestions. I have tried everything that has been mentioned so far.

I have:

1. Replaced the filter and primed system
2. Ensured the delivery valve and fuel shutoff are clean and functioning. All parts are there and functioning.
3. checked the lift of the quill in the top center of the hydraulic head. It bobs a pencil up and down with about a 1/2" of throw.
4. Checked compression with thumb, it did not blow my finger off (I was not able to completely seal the injector "bore" with my thumb) but it did move my thumb and pull it back on the downward stroke.
5. Hooked up all of the injectors outside of the engine and cranked it. All of the injectors popped off. The injectors seemed to pop well for the most part, not amazing, but I would think it would be enough for the truck to at least try to start. Link to video of injectors -

Every time I try to start the truck it seems to try to catch a little bit but I get no smoke or anything out of the exhaust. Not sure what to do next?

 

[DaneGer21]

Have you confirmed engine to injection timing? And then confirm the HH is also in the correct “position”(so to speak).

 

[rustystud]

I didn't read your initial story, but I read it tonight. So this truck has set for 12 + years correct ? and when you checked the compression it didn't blow your finger away but just moved it ?
On a diesel engine like this with compression ratios of 22:1 your finger should have been blown right off that hole faster then thought. Your seal rings are more then likely "rusted/gummed up" .
You need to fill each cylinder with some cleaning solvent , then add some lubricant before reinstalling the injectors. Go to your nearest NAPA or whatever Automotive supply store and ask for a quality penetrating solvent/lubricant. Let it set overnight, then the next day spin the engine over several times. That will push out the solvent/lubricants. Then squirt some engine oil into each cylinder, reinstall the injectors and try and start it.
Once you do get it started, add some engine cleaner and run it for a while. Then drain out all that old oil and replace the oil filters then add some good clean oil !

 

[ToddJK]

I think Rusty has the best suggestion, as these motors have incredible compression. If this doesn't work, that engine may need to be rebuilt, but I'm gonna be hopeful and that this is the final solution to a running engine.

 

[Floridianson]

Multi has 22:1 compression ratio just to keep things correct.

 

[rustystud]

Thank all of you for your suggestions. I have tried everything that has been mentioned so far.

I have:

1. Replaced the filter and primed system
2. Ensured the delivery valve and fuel shutoff are clean and functioning. All parts are there and functioning.
3. checked the lift of the quill in the top center of the hydraulic head. It bobs a pencil up and down with about a 1/2" of throw.
4. Checked compression with thumb, it did not blow my finger off (I was not able to completely seal the injector "bore" with my thumb) but it did move my thumb and pull it back on the downward stroke.
5. Hooked up all of the injectors outside of the engine and cranked it. All of the injectors popped off. The injectors seemed to pop well for the most part, not amazing, but I would think it would be enough for the truck to at least try to start. Link to video of injectors -

Every time I try to start the truck it seems to try to catch a little bit but I get no smoke or anything out of the exhaust. Not sure what to do next?

Have you had any success in getting this engine started ? Very curious.

 

[85J]

Have you had any success in getting this engine started ? Very curious.

No success yet. I did try soaking the cylinders with a 50/50 mix of ATF and Marvel Mystery Oil for a few days, adding a few ounces every other day. I'm not confident that the mixture did much of anything, because I also soaked an old carbon covered spark plug in the same mixture and it didn't seem to do much.
However, a mixture of ATF/MMO/acetone in equal parts seemed to clean the carbon off of a different spark plug very well.
After soaking the cylinder with the ATF/MMO I added heavy weight motor oil, put the injectors back in, buttoned everything up, cranked the truck, and... nothing.
Because I'm not confident with the test of the ATF/MMO I'm going to pull the injectors again and soak with probably PB Blaster for a couple days and then ATF/MMO/acetone mixture for a couple more days.
If any of you have suggestions on what to soak the cylinders with I'm all ears.
Also got a compression tester that I plan on adapting to a junk injector from a different truck, so I will be able to test before and after soaking.

 

[cattlerepairman]

I am just an amateur.

You have been very thorough and established that
- the truck gets fuel from the tank all the way to the injectors
- the injectors pop off (visibly!). Thanks for posting the video!
- the engine turns over at acceptable speed

For completeness, you may want to check air intake, filter and plumbing for mouse house and other obstructions.
(I suspect you already did).

If a diesel has air, fuel at the right time and compression, it will run.

That leaves timing as the most likely suspect to me. Fuel is being delivered, but at the wrong time. Maybe the IP was off and was put on 180 degrees out. You'd never know unless you check timing.

I am positive it is a simple, stupid thing like a HH or IP out of time. Find it, correct it and she'll pop off as if nothing ever happened.

(edited my post because half of it was missing after posting?!?)

 

[Guyfang]

I am a generator guy, but engines are engines. So, to echo several other posts here. Be sure and check air intake.

I watched several guys work on a M35A3 for several days. No start. They did everything you did. Nothing. I went over and several hours later, found the air filter full of water and frozen solid. No air to engine.

I once worked on a gen set that would not start. 3-4 days. We did everything you did. No start. Then we discovered the hose between the filter and air intake had collapsed, but only the inner hose. The outer hose looked brand new due to the spring between the hoses kept it open. No air.

After you eliminate all possible reasons, whatever is left over has to be the cause. For all you know, a big bird made a nest in the air intake. Or some nice person stuck a hand full of rags in there. Easy to check, disconnect the air intake system at the manifold.

 

[85J]

I am a generator guy, but engines are engines. So, to echo several other posts here. Be sure and check air intake.

I watched several guys work on a M35A3 for several days. No start. They did everything you did. Nothing. I went over and several hours later, found the air filter full of water and frozen solid. No air to engine.

I once worked on a gen set that would not start. 3-4 days. We did everything you did. No start. Then we discovered the hose between the filter and air intake had collapsed, but only the inner hose. The outer hose looked brand new due to the spring between the hoses kept it open. No air.

After you eliminate all possible reasons, whatever is left over has to be the cause. For all you know, a big bird made a nest in the air intake. Or some nice person stuck a hand full of rags in there. Easy to check, disconnect the air intake system at the manifold.

Already removed the air filter and tubing all of the way to the turbo. Had to remove it early on to replace the starter solenoid. I just have a helper use a board to simulate the air restriction of the filter.