M800 series Automatic

[NEIOWA]

I'm looking for ref to conversion of M800 series 5ton to Allison Automatic.

Issue us that many very good 5t are available surplus to Fire Depts. Many are in very good low mile. Most rural FD could well use for tanker chassis or wildland. BUT most will not take anything unless it has an automatic.
1.) Shortage of people today that can drive ANY vehicle with a clutch/manual trans
2.) Firefighter who last drove anything larger than an F150 weeks before, hits the lights/siren/radio, recipe for trouble/injury.

Concept is to replace the OEM transmission with either a used Allison (perhaps something like a MT653) or with a new autoshift manual transmission (a two pedal setup). Keeping OEM engine/transfercase as factory install.

Anyone have ref to projects that have done either? Series production would be of great interest. I'm going on a hunt for grant funding to do a pilot project.

 

[acetomatoco]

Driver training would be cheaper....heck you only need the clutch for first and reverse in a 5 ton anyway....ACE

 

[jwaller]

allison autos are very expensive even used.

 

[NEIOWA]

MT653 are readily available as take outs for $2500 as many used in midsize lease/rental trucks.

Already discuss the why. Very nice 5t sit unissued at state forester FEPP yards. Most FD, regardless of the need for chassis, will not take them. The only FD that will are those that have a couple of outside of the box "nuts" who would be right here. Then the trucks end sitting unused in fire stations due to lack of operators. Water tanker/tenders, rightfully so, have the reputation as widow makers for casual operators. Eliminating manual trans is a good thing in vol FD operation.

 

[pa.rich]

Good Grief ! A man cant drive a stick? Thats as bad as a women that cant cook! Whats this world coming to?

 

[acetomatoco]

re-iterating... driver training is cheaper than conversion... even in religion...manual transmission should be a 12 hour block of instruction in Fireman 101... I started on a Model TT Ford with a separate all brass Guptil piston pump and 1 1/8 cotton brush fire hose, and graduated to a 1935 American Lafrance 500 gpm open cab midship rotary gear pump Buda gas engine powered unit before graduating from High School in 1960...and I don't have a Blackberry... ACE

 

[NEIOWA]

Yeah yeah. Not the point. As we all know the majority of US drivers can't operate a Honda with a manual transmission. And the debate over "not a man/can't be a truck driver unless can operate a 43sp Roadranger in an icestorm pulling a triple bottom over Donner Pass (no chains allow)" probably continues. However many truck lines are buying autoshift or Allison for a reason so they 1.) can recruit the drivers they need to stay in business and 2.) to lower maintenance costs. No drivers training in FF1.

My FD is fortunate that our "rural area" is big farms and most of us (including our recent recruit, a female former 88M) can drive a manual. Most FD are not so fortuante. As before the guy who has not driven any thing over 6000lb GVW in the last month hits the seat lights/siren and 2way on in a 40000 tanker with water sloshing around in back the less distractions he has the better. Including both hands on the wheel.

There is a large inventory of M800 series available in good condition, including, setting in state forester/FEPP yards. Most Fire Depts won't take them dispite a crying need for tanker chassis. IE. YOU CAN'T GIVE THEM AWAY. Manual trans is a no sell.

So anyone know of conversion to Allison or autoshift transmission on 5t? Particularly series production.

I'm going looking for grant $ to set a pilot conversion project.

 

[steelsoldiers]

You might try emailing or calling the folks at Roscommon Equipment Center: http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter.com/ They don't list that project on their website, but that doesn't mean they haven't tried it.

 

[Elwenil]

Did not the NHC 250 come in the 900 series 5 tons in front of the Allison? If so it stands to reason that a transmission could be retrofitted to the 800 series with the same engine. The problem is all the controls and related stuff. If the 5 ton's transfer case in the 800 series has the weird air lines to actuate it depending on transmission gear, then there may need to be a transfer case swap also. I think it would probably cost more than what the truck is worth since you may as well locate a 900 series with an auto already in place.

I am unconvinced that automatics are more cost effective. They certainly are not in the light truck market. True, a manual transmission is more expensive to replace than an automatic, but in our shop we replace way more autos than manuals. Something like 20-30 autos per one manual. Plus in the new Ram trucks, you have to use ATF+4 that is very expensive and it needs to be serviced regularly. A manual you can basically forget about until it needs a clutch and will outlast an auto every time if a good driver is behind the wheel.

As for fire departments needing autos, I know the riff-raff they are letting in the volunteer FDs here locally and they might be trained on how to fight fires, but very little training in common sense. If they can't handle the job of driving a truck with all the lights and siren and still maintain a acceptable level of competence and safety, they have no business being behind the wheel. Reminds me a lot of the local idiot that ran a firetruck off a turn and through someone's garage. Barely missed the house where a family was sleeping. Too many fools are in the FD here for the feeling of importance and the foolishness of driving around in a firetruck or ambulance with the lights and siren.

Anyway, anything is possible, but I think you are not going to save much money by trying to swap an automatic into an 800 series. You would almost have to have a donor truck to rob everything out of and that would defeat the purpose to a certain extent. Just my .02

 

[NEIOWA]

M800 series are zero cost (transport only). Good point on the M923 with Allison. Was an MT series as I recall. Will have to check. MT take outs are inexpensive.

I'd really like to know how the M900 series that are in civilian hands are getting there. Apparently are not going thru the DRMS system as I've been working that for more than 3years. M900s just don't show up unless wrecker/HX/scrap. Which is supposed to be the case for A1/A2/A3 If these are leaving the service they are not getting into the hands of local gov't agencies that could really use them. And frankly FEPP transfer to FD is a higher end use/better value to the taxpayer than sending to furin countries such as France, Jordan etc.

Perhaps Bruce knows how his M900 series trucks passed out of the hands of SAM and into civ market?

Sounds like your local FD is in the hands of what the fire service classifies as WACKERS. Unfortunate. But shit does happen. Perhaps they need a good levelheaded recruit from the local bench.

 

[steelsoldiers]

My M923A2 came right through DRMO to GL to me. The SeeBees got new trucks and sidelined their 939A2's. Not sure why they didn't get picked over by FEPP folks first. Maybe because all of them had a few or in some cases many parts picked off of them while they were sidelined. They were all driven to their final resting place, but none of them could have been driven out without some $$ and time.

 

[Elwenil]

I'd say that 's the main reason. Most FDs and other local Govt. agencies don't want to have to rebuild major components or replace missing, hard to find parts in order to get a vehicle. Chris, I notice that you have been doing quite a bit of footwork and digging around for the parts that were missing on your M923A2. I guess the other guys don't want to have to do that much work just to make one road worthy. A running, driving truck is one thing, but I would say the majority of 900 series trucks I have seen on GL would qualify for "basket case" status.

Another thought is to contact Allison directly and see what they have to say. Since the NHC 250 uses a SAE bellhousing it should just be a matter of matching the GVW, HP, and RPM to the proper transmission. They offer reman transmissions and an "Emergency Series" transmission line for Fire and Rescue vehicles.
http://www.allisontransmission.com/...sions/model/evs/index.jsp?CTAMR=fireemergency

 

[steelsoldiers]

Well, I wouldn't say they were basket case trucks, but they were missing a few items and could not be driven off of the lot. My truck was missing a more parts than 75% of the trucks there. That's why I could afford it. There were 3 that were worse off than mine either in body damage or missing parts. Bruce Kubu's truck just needed batteries, a control box and fluids to get running and driving. There were 2 M927's, A1's I believe, that just sold on GL in OH. They were in running and driving condition and sold for $18-20k. I don't think we'll see any quantity of running and driving 900's from GL any time soon.

 

[m139h2otruck]

Adelman's in Ohio has an ad in the back of Rock & Dirt each issue. They show MT654 takeouts for $900, and others from $650 to $2,750. Not sure which auto was used in the 900 series. Many larger construction firms with large truck fleets in our area are switching to autos due to the lack of qualified drivers coming into the industry. One of the owner's told me that he can make a driver out of almost anyone with the new trucks on the market now. I think that 10-15% of their drivers are women in the summer.

 

[NEIOWA]

M923 transmission is apparently an MT 654CR

 

[Jones]

I'm shopping for another transfer case and have had several people tell me that the 900 series transfer cases are prone to breaking their cases because the transmissions upshift so hard. I'm also researching a comment about them shifting themselves into neutral upon loss of air pressure. No air for brakes and no direct connection with the engine/transmission/retarder could be a bad combination. Anybody else heard any of this stuff?

 

[steelsoldiers]

Hey Jones. I haven't heard of those exact problems before and I've done a lot of reading on the 939-series trucks. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened before, but not that I've seen. My Allison shifts nice and smooth up and down so it is hard for me to imagine it shifting so hard to break the t-case. Maybe if the driver went from 5th to reverse? There was a PS Mag article about only backing the 939 trucks up in high range, not low, to prevent case cracking. Maybe that's it? The transfer case is lever shifted so I'm not sure how it could jump into neutral with air pressure loss. There is an air valve on the t-case that automatically shifts the truck into 6x6 when you shift into low range. No sprag.

 

[pa.rich]

Sheeesshhh !!If they cant drive a manual they dont belong in a large truck. Just my opinion.

 

[NEIOWA]

Sheeesshhh !!If they cant drive a manual they dont belong in a large truck. Just my opinion.

Thanks for the input (and thanks for sharing). Read thru the thread.

You drive a truck for your local vol. fire dept? You volunteer for drivers program instructor? If you stand up likely they'll take you and if you do a little leg work you can get them thru FEPP whatever DOD truck your little heart desires (with manual or auto transmission). How about a tanker conversion of an M816, you convert to a tanker and you can have the wrecker body. How about an M911 tanker, you can have 2x 45000lb hydraulic winches, maybe a little ole deuce wild land truck from a shop van (you can have the body and winch).

 

[D-Man]

Chris, you are absolutely correct about the T-case and backing up in low range. It wasn't designed to handle that much torque. I have spoken at length with our unit motor pool mechanics about numerous 5-ton issues and haven't heard the rough shifting/T-case cracking 'problem' either. Like you, I suspect they meant low range reverse. It's funny because the M211 is exactly the opposite, especially with a load - go figure.