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M920 Differential Gears

oldMan99

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Location
Polk County, Florida
I am trying to find a souse to purchase ring and pinion gears for the front and rear axles on the M920.

I believe the front is: Rockwell/Hypoid FDS-1807 with 6.17 gears currently.

I believe the rear is: Rockwel/SUHD also with 6.17 gears and Detroit locker.

An additional questions is what ratios are available and do you have to change the carrier?

I know Soni found 4.88 gears somewhere. That would be an improvement over the 6.17, but something like 4.11 would be even better.

I have spent quite a bit of time searching this site, Goggling and have made over 10 phone calls without any success.

Any guidance/advise/info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance....
 

466Navastar

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Buffalo,ny
are the highway gear ratio carriers that expensive - or is it that they are just not available -----is it because these trucks have military specific drive axles?

a m916/920 with 3.50, 3.73 or 3.90 axle ratio would be a nice hiway truck and with low transmission gears would still have grunt from a standing start

anyone look into possibly modifying the location of the ring gear flange on the 6.17 military carrier to allow using it with hiway gears?
 

M920

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chama/nm
are the highway gear ratio carriers that expensive - or is it that they are just not available -----is it because these trucks have military specific drive axles?

a m916/920 with 3.50, 3.73 or 3.90 axle ratio would be a nice hiway truck and with low transmission gears would still have grunt from a standing start

anyone look into possibly modifying the location of the ring gear flange on the 6.17 military carrier to allow using it with hiway gears?
The new carriers for the Rockwell SUHDs where about $1200.00 a piece, back in 2003 when I checked around. I could not find any used ones at the time....everybody wanted to sell me the whole hoghead assembly.

Also with 46" tall tires and the O.D. tranny, the 4.88s are really not that far off. 4.10s or 4.56s would probably be perfect but my M920A1 will run up against the governor at 79 mph and cruises down the highway nicely at 65-70 mph.
Since the M915-M920 trucks are not exactly what I would consider
aerodynamic.....the fuel consumption really sky rockets above 70 mph, regardless of the gearing! :roll:
 

466Navastar

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Buffalo,ny
Yeah - I had you in mind when I posted.....those tires have a WAY cool factor - but not everyone can afford them or need them....I was thinking more mainstream where somebody got a M916/920 with stock tires and just wanted to not redline the tach every outing on the highway....one would think the military would have spec'd these trucks with a 2 speed transfer case and some better gears for the road......with a 6.17 ratio and stock tires the engine/trans in these trucks is turning almost twice as far as a everyday civilian semi and burning 50% more fuel than it has to.....guess SAM doent care about fuel mileage.

as the axle ratio gets taller (lower numerically) the pinion gets bigger - so the ring gear needs to get thinner- or move away from centerline of pinion......not having seen these units -I wonder if there isnt enough "meat" on a 3.73 ring gear to precision grind off enough thickness to make it work with the military carrier OR put the carrier in a lathe and using a parting tool take the ring gear flange off and put it where it needs to be by welding and re-heat treating......guess that wouldnt be cheap - but some of the guys here seem connected to skilled tradesmen or are skilled tradesmen......just say'in
 
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Bighurt

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guess SAM doent care about fuel mileage.
No but when a vehicle's report has excessive fuel use, motor pool gets a bad report card.

Just as an example and this was a user error. We use prokeys for fueling up, that data not only bills the SQ but links to the MP system to data log the miles and reg number.

Unfortunately the pro keys aren't labeled or weren't labeled, for the vehicle and nobody was briefed they were linked to each vehicle.

Turns out we used one key to fill the fleet over the course of an exercise. The key we used happen to be a vehicle that had been in motor pool for over a year. The CC wasn't to impressed that it managed to use 1200+ gallons of fuel and logged 9 miles in that fiscal year.

Nobody got in trouble, but we did get key-chains... labeled of course.

Uncle Sam is still the largest user of petroleum in the US...by a very large gap.
 

oldMan99

Member
479
12
18
Location
Polk County, Florida
The new carriers for the Rockwell SUHDs where about $1200.00 a piece, back in 2003 when I checked around. I could not find any used ones at the time....everybody wanted to sell me the whole hoghead assembly.
$1200 for an open diff or for a locker? I am GUESSING but the fact you were looking at them does mean 4.11/4.56 gears are available? (Therefore the quest to find carriers that would work with them). I insist on keeping the lockers.

$1200x3=$3600. That is a lot of $ to be sure but with the cost of fuel and enough driven miles it would pay for itself if the MPG difference was enough. Also reduced wear on the engine running at a lower RPM. Once I find sources and pricing I can do some math based on current fuel prices and see if it makes financial sense.

Also with 46" tall tires and the O.D. tranny, the 4.88s are really not that far off. 4.10s or 4.56s would probably be perfect but my M920A1 will run up against the governor at 79 mph and cruises down the highway nicely at 65-70 mph.
Since the M915-M920 trucks are not exactly what I would consider
aerodynamic.....the fuel consumption really sky rockets above 70 mph, regardless of the gearing! :roll:
I could be comfortable with cruising at 65-70 if the RPM is in the proper spot to give me the best MPG combined with proper power to make it up the rolling hills w/o struggling. Of course mountains are not hills and may well require shifting.

Soni, with the 4.88 and 46" tires, what MPG do you get at a steady 70 on more or less flat ground? (Of course you changed the engine on your 920 so your numbers would likely be different than a stock 920. Any Idea how different?

With the stock engine what is the "sweet RPM" that properly (Most efficiently) balances power and MPG? That is the RPM I would most like to see at 65-70mph.

Thanks to all for the help! This is going to be one heck of a project......
 

oldMan99

Member
479
12
18
Location
Polk County, Florida
1200+ gallons of fuel and logged 9 miles
If I did my math right, that is 41 FEET per gallon -OR- 133 gallons per mile!

:shock: :cookoo: :shock: :cookoo: :shock:

Gee, that is not very good mileage - I don't think I want one of those. :-D
:driver:



And now, back to the real reason for this thread... where to get the gears??
 
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Bighurt

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And now, back to the real reason for this thread... where to get the gears??
I found various truck part dealers that have entire housings hub to hub but I couldn't find any gears solo.

The assemblies are $1600, good take out. No gear ratio listed...

It looks like the biggest user of the Raockwell SUHD was the 916-920 trucks...darn the luck.

I wonder if you can by FMTV axles from Oshkosh?
 

reb87

Member
602
15
18
Location
Nebraska
i was hauling beans to adm during harvest. about 120 miles round trip half loaded half empty around 92000 full 36000 lbs empty, driving on highways about 56 mph, I was averaging 3.85 mpg with the m920 and 4.5mpg with the m915a1(@65mph) (a little town driving and some idling). I want to find lockouts and get the hemtt tires on and that should help with the mileage some..
 

466Navastar

Member
199
0
16
Location
Buffalo,ny
If you assume a civilian truck with 3.50 gears and a .75 overdrive trans in top gear can go 100mph bumping off the governor......then a 6.17 geared M920 with direct drive CAT 7155 trans shouldnt be capable of any more than about 40 mph -----by calculation....but I read a post from 2009 from Reb87 and he says about 60 mph tops for M916........maybe the civilian truck can go faster than 100MPH.....is THAT possible?

Realize these arent speed demons - but what do you guys say one can expect from a stock GL sale M916?........I cant see trying to drive one from Texas or Arkansas to NY - if you cant keep up with traffic
 

oldMan99

Member
479
12
18
Location
Polk County, Florida
i was hauling beans to adm during harvest. about 120 miles round trip half loaded half empty around 92000 full 36000 lbs empty, driving on highways about 56 mph, I was averaging 3.85 mpg with the m920 and 4.5mpg with the m915a1(@65mph) (a little town driving and some idling). I want to find lockouts and get the hemtt tires on and that should help with the mileage some..
Thats great info, Thanks !!

What size tires (How tall) are you running on the 920 at that time? (I assume your running stock gears?)

And what RPM's were you pushing at 56mph?

Are lockouts an option? (Do they make them - Where to get them?)
 

Bighurt

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...maybe the civilian truck can go faster than 100MPH.....is THAT possible?
I was making a run (in a rental car) from SoCal to Phoenix to pick up some, we'll say stuff. We were about 50 miles in the boarder and got over taken by a Peterbilt 379, I know as it's my favorite model. We were doing a touch under 90, not a lot of law dogs in that area. They passed us like we were standing still, by my estimates it had to be moving 110+.

This was over a decade ago and a lot of trucks didn't have CPU's that tracked that info at the time. If I recall this truck was a contract driver, so they probably just had log books.

So yes it's possible with the Fuller's 13 speeds it takes a bit but it's possible to get them moving.
 

oldMan99

Member
479
12
18
Location
Polk County, Florida
I found various truck part dealers that have entire housings hub to hub but I couldn't find any gears solo.

The assemblies are $1600, good take out. No gear ratio listed...

It looks like the biggest user of the Raockwell SUHD was the 916-920 trucks...darn the luck.

I wonder if you can by FMTV axles from Oshkosh?
Those are "Probably" take outs from the M920 and would therefore have the same gears I'm trying to replace.

The FMTV axles would be way cool if they are the ones I am thinking of ( Oshkosh Products TAK-4 Independent Suspension ) (See picture below) Looks like you can just slide the entire unit onto your frame, bolt it in place, run some drive shafts and air lines and off you go. Of course not knowing the gear ratios available for these units these may be no better that (in that respect) that the stock 920 axles.

And... I can't even begin to guess how much they would cost! The independent suspension would be killer for my project but I bet the cost of 4 of them would sink the project too....

That assumes of course that they are even available to us lowly civilians....
 

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Bighurt

New member
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Location
Minot, ND
Those are "Probably" take outs from the M920 and would therefore have the same gears I'm trying to replace.

The FMTV axles would be way cool if they are the ones I am thinking of ( Oshkosh Products TAK-4 Independent Suspension ) (See picture below) Looks like you can just slide the entire unit onto your frame, bolt it in place, run some drive shafts and air lines and off you go. Of course not knowing the gear ratios available for these units these may be no better that (in that respect) that the stock 920 axles.

And... I can't even begin to guess how much they would cost! The independent suspension would be killer for my project but I bet the cost of 4 of them would sink the project too....

That assumes of course that they are even available to us lowly civilians....
Unfortunately the FMTV uses Arvin Meritor, and the P-series snow equipment so they are obtainable.

The Tak-4 (awesome btw) is used on the MTVR, and the Striker (civilian airport) so they are obtainable.

For a M920 ideally we need AxleTech™ 5000 Series axles, which are used in the Global HET and M1070
 
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Nonotagain

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Parkville, MD
I used to run a Freightliner with a 475 Cummins, 13 speed Road Ranger, 3.73 gears and 12.00X24.5 tires. Maximum rpm was 2350 before the governor kicked in. There was a 250 rpm drop between gears.

I cursed @ 80mph most of the time right around 1950 rpm when traveling south on I-85 to Atlanta.

I had the opportunity to run the truck on the track at Atlanta International Raceway for Truck Week and was clocked at 106 for three laps. Not too bad for an armored tractor.

Normal curse rpm was 1700 @ 65 in 12th. In 13th the truck was too jerky @ 1450-1475 rpm with the ceramic clutch. You could feel every cylinder fire when lugged down below 1500 rpm.

 

M920

Member
892
25
18
Location
chama/nm
If you assume a civilian truck with 3.50 gears and a .75 overdrive trans in top gear can go 100mph bumping off the governor......then a 6.17 geared M920 with direct drive CAT 7155 trans shouldnt be capable of any more than about 40 mph -----by calculation....but I read a post from 2009 from Reb87 and he says about 60 mph tops for M916........maybe the civilian truck can go faster than 100MPH.....is THAT possible?

Realize these arent speed demons - but what do you guys say one can expect from a stock GL sale M916?........I cant see trying to drive one from Texas or Arkansas to NY - if you cant keep up with traffic


Ok...so I probably should mention here, for the purpose of comparing apples to apples, that the stock tires that come on the M916-M920 are 11.00 R 20s and messure 46" tall. This is a little confusing since the 395/85 R 20s and the 445/65 R 22.5s are also 46" tall.
I need to mention that in the stock Cat 7155 tranny, 16th gear is overdrive, so it is an OVERDRIVE transmission!
Anyway, with the stock 7155 tranny, the stock Cummins 400hp engine, free flowing exhaust, 46" tall tires, but with the 4.88:1 axle gears my M920 would run out at 79 mph at 2150 rpm and get 5 to 5.5 MPGs, cruising at 65-70 mph.

Soni
 

oldMan99

Member
479
12
18
Location
Polk County, Florida
Ok...so I probably should mention here, for the purpose of comparing apples to apples, that the stock tires that come on the M916-M920 are 11.00 R 20s and messure 46" tall. This is a little confusing since the 395/85 R 20s and the 445/65 R 22.5s are also 46" tall.
I need to mention that in the stock Cat 7155 tranny, 16th gear is overdrive, so it is an OVERDRIVE transmission!
Anyway, with the stock 7155 tranny, the stock Cummins 400hp engine, free flowing exhaust, 46" tall tires, but with the 4.88:1 axle gears my M920 would run out at 79 mph at 2150 rpm and get 5 to 5.5 MPGs, cruising at 65-70 mph.

Soni
Outstanding info Soni, THANKS (Yet again!)

5 - 5.5mpg is not really impressive but then again, it is about the same a gas 460 or 454 1 ton towing a large 5th wheel camping trailer would get and the 920 can tow/haul slightly more weight so I guess it is livable.

Assuming they are available (And I can somehow keep the lockers) how much improvement do you guestimate you would get with 4.11 or 4.56? and given the choice, which would you guess would be better for mileage/power. (With 46" tall tires)
 

M920

Member
892
25
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Location
chama/nm
$1200 for an open diff or for a locker? I am GUESSING but the fact you were looking at them does mean 4.11/4.56 gears are available? (Therefore the quest to find carriers that would work with them). I insist on keeping the lockers.

Soni, with the 4.88 and 46" tires, what MPG do you get at a steady 70 on more or less flat ground? (Of course you changed the engine on your 920 so your numbers would likely be different than a stock 920. Any Idea how different?

With the stock engine what is the "sweet RPM" that properly (Most efficiently) balances power and MPG? That is the RPM I would most like to see at 65-70mph.

Thanks to all for the help! This is going to be one heck of a project......
Yes, you can get all the common gear ratios for these axles.

The Detroit Lockers replace the spider gears, and install inside the stock carriers. So changing carriers for the different gear ratios does not require a new locker. Since the Detroit Lockers fit all the carriers, regardless of ratio, you can just simply switch it from one to another.

I'm not sure about the "sweet spot" RPM whise, but I think 5 to 5.5 MPG is about as good as you will get with these trucks and the stock engine.

With my new electronic ISX Cummins and 65-70 mph highway cruising with a light load, I can get up to 6.5 MPG.

Soni
 

oldMan99

Member
479
12
18
Location
Polk County, Florida
Well... I did some research and some math (And now my head hurts...)

The Caterpillar/D7155/Semi-Automatic trans in the M920 has 16 forward speeds, #15 is 1:1 and #16 is 0.83 (Overdrive)

According to TM 9-2320-273-10 the "Sweet spot" for this truck is between 1,800 and 1,900 rpm. "When driving conditions permit, maintain the legal highway speed in a gear that permits running the engine below governed speed. This is the engine's cruising range and it affords better fuel economy than the higher engine speeds. Recommended normal highway cruising range is 1,800 to 1,900 rpm."

On Randy's Ring & Pinion company website I found a RPM calculator that you input the R/P ratio, tire size, speed and transmission gear and it will calculate the engine RPM for you. Randy's Ring & Pinion. RPM Calculator.

About 3 posts ago Soni stated that with the stock engine and trans, 4.88 gears and 46" tall tires he was getting 2150rpm at 79mph.

According to the computer, Soni should have been hitting 2337rpm at 79. I doubt he was doing that unless the revlimiter was not working properly and the tach was also off. In order to get the chart to agree with his numbers I had to change the tire size to 50". I'm pretty sure he would have remembered if he had 46 or 50" tires but that is what it took for that computer to have the math come out right.

Between what Soni stated and the results the chart gives there is a 187rpm difference. Since the "Sweet spot" is only a range of 100 it is going to be difficult to nail it unless somebody better at math than I am can explain and correct the inconsistency. In the mean time, I did some math just to see what it looked like.

In order to compare apple to apples And just for general info, I did 2 sets of calculations. One set using a 50" tire and one set using a 46" tire. I also did 2 speed ranges, 65 and 70mph. Reason I did this is as Soni noted the M920 is about as aerodynamic as a 3 story house. The faster you try to push it through the air the more your fighting air resistance. He stated that after 70mph he saw a notable decrease in mpg. In my flat front class A motor home I noticed about the same thing. Going from 65 to 70 there was about a 3.5mpg drop, at 75 the drop was 6+ mpg. That extra 5 mph cost quite a bit. I was comfortable in the right lane at 65 most of the time. So I did these calculations to see what gear would get me closest to the right (according to the book) RPM at both speeds. I also calculated the red line speed for each combination.... Anybody wanna go 94mph in a M920?

Using the book number of 1,800 to 1,900 to arrive at 1,850 as "The" desired rpm and my guess that 65mph is probably going to be the point of "No return" for mpg then a gear that gives 1,850 at 65 would be ideal.

50" Tire
4.88 - 79mph = 2150rpm
4.88 - 70mph = 1905rpm, 65mph = 1769rpm

4.56 - 70mph = 1780rpm, 65mph = 1653rpm, 85mph = 2162rpm

4.11 - 70mph = 1605rpm, 65mph = 1490rpm, 94mph = 2155rpm

46" Tire
4.88 - 79mph = 2337rpm
4.88 - 70mph = 2071rpm, 65mph = 1923rpm

4.56 - 70mph = 1935rpm, 65mph = 1797rpm, 78mph = 2156

4.11 - 70mph = 1744rpm, 65mph = 1620rpm, 85mph = 2118rpm

Given the roughly 200rpm discrepancy between Soni's number and the "uncorrected" calculator number if you try to compensate by taking 1/2 of that error off the 46" figures and adding 1/2 of it to the 50" numbers (100rpm correction factor) You can come up with a whole different set of results... (However, even when you do that, the numbers still line up to give what looks like the same final decision)

I did input the factory numbers. 6.17 gears, 46" tires at the book stated max mph of 59 (The book states that this will give you the red line rpm of 2100) the calculator said 2207rpm. I changed to a 50" tire and then it said 2030. Real darn close to the book number, (only 70rpm less).

So...

At this point all I can do is guess that since the calculator showed almost the same RPM as the book when using a 50" tire and the 50" tire numbers match Soni's statement of his performance that until the local math whiz comes along and fixes the calculator, the 50" results are going to be pretty close to what we should see in the trucks in real life.

Given that, it looks like 4.88 may not be to far off the mark of "perfect" as it is 1905rpm at 70 and 1769 at 65.

If the engine does not mind running just a tad below the book number then 4.56 gives 1780 at 70mph - Since the calculator showed the 6.17 (Factory) gear 70rpm less than the book, if you add 70rpm to the 1780 then your dead nuts on 1850 which should be the absolute perfect rpm according to the book. At 65 1653 (1723 corrected). This is a tad bit low. So maybe you have to go faster to get better mpg?? lol... (down shifting form 16th to 15th gear will not correct that as you will end up with 2165 (2235 corrected) at 65 because your moving from over drive to 1:1 direct drive in 15th gear.

Of course if your going to be correcting numbers... The 4.88 with the 70 rpm correction, 65mph = 1839rpm, pretty close to the "Ideal 1850".

So it looks like if you can go to the 4.88 and not have to change the carrier and to go to the 4.56 you do have to change the carrier, (at something like $1,200 each if I remember correctly) I guess the 4.88 wins.... Unless somebody more smarter than I can point out some flaw in my rithmatik.

So, can anybody find a major flaw in the above that would cause me to rethink the 4.88 selection? If so, please speak up!

Now all we have to do is figure out where to get the gears from!
 
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