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master cylinder without vent line?

Rattlehead

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Those who have bought/installed the Wildwood setup, how do you like it? Does the fill lid have the expandible rubber diaphram to make up the space as brake fluid level goes down from brake wear? If a truck has DOT 3 in it, then venting directly to the atmosphere is not good, which is where you would want the rubber diaphram to seal it.
 

acetomatoco

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Just yesterday I was reading one of the PS mag articles re the MWO on the vent line...it was here on this site at the top of the opening page... Usta be the vents from the gas tank, booster and MC were all plumbed together...resulting in fumes in the wrong places... It also stated that if you had brake fluid coming out of the vent, the Air Pak was bad...
 

oifvet

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Rattlehead said:
Those who have bought/installed the Wildwood setup, how do you like it? Does the fill lid have the expandable rubber diaphragm to make up the space as brake fluid level goes down from brake wear? If a truck has DOT 3 in it, then venting directly to the atmosphere is not good, which is where you would want the rubber diaphragm to seal it.
My kit arrived yesterday. I need a couple of fittings and I will go to work on the install. I'll let you know the particulars.
I have DOT 5, but why is venting DOT 3 to the atmosphere bad?
 

hndrsonj

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I love it, if I can ever get my camera up i'll post a photo. I would not have a duece without it.
 

BFR

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if you have a remote reservoir would you just plug/pinch & disconnect the line to use a bleader where it connects?
 

houdel

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oifvet said:
I have DOT 5, but why is venting DOT 3 to the atmosphere bad?
DOT 3 is hygroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. As you cycle the brakes, brake fluid is pumped in and out of the master cylinder reservoir (particularly with drum brakes). As the brake fluid within the reservoir fluctuates, air is pumped in and out of the reservoir to compensate for the brake fluid level. Water in the air is absorbed by the DOT 3 fluid and contaminates the brake system. Fortunately, most master cylinders since the 70s have a rubber bellows built into the cap. The bellows expands and contracts as the brake fluid level fluctuates thus sealing the brake fluid from the atmosphere and reducing contamination of the brake fluid.
 

Rattlehead

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oifvet said:
I have DOT 5, but why is venting DOT 3 to the atmosphere bad?
DOT 3 is hydroscopic, and will absorb moisture out of the air. If you look at the lid of your master cylinder of your typical civvy vehicle, you will see it has a rubber diaphram that seals the top of the reservoir. This diaphram will telescope into the reservoir to make up space as your brake fluid level goes down due to increased travel of the pistons/wheel cylinders, while not exposing it to the air. The diaphram is vented on the TOP side to the atmosphere, to allow it to telescope downward.
 

oifvet

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I wonder who ever figured that out, and how. And what is it about brake fluid that makes it what it is, as opposed to any other type of hydraulic fluid being used for brakes. I assume it has something to do with heat, boiling points, boil-over, evaporation from heat, etc., correct?

(I'm not trying to hi-jack or anything. I just figure, while you all are doing the teaching, I might as well learn as much as I can. Carry on. I'm taking this in.)
 

m-35tom

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a: m/c has to be vented. only exception is m/c that has bellows, allows fluid to go down usually only applies to disk systems. drum brakes have a relative constant level in m/c.
b: remote res may be neat but is waste of time / money. if you have good safe brake system you will only need to add fluid almost never. if you want to risk your life fine, but think of killing someone else before you drive with leaking brakes.
c: brake fluid coming out vent on firewall is indication of serious, dangerous failure of airpack.
d: ace would you spell check for these people more often??
my .02¢ (with inflation shouldn't it be more?)
 

houdel

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m-35tom said:
.... exception is m/c that has bellows, allows fluid to go down usually only applies to disk systems
True, but not in the context of my answer. Disc brakes essentially cycle almost no fluid during a braking cycle. There are usually no retraction springs in a disc brake system, the pads are basically in contact with the rotor at all times. When a disc brake is applied, there is very little fluid displaced. However, the fluid pressure in the caliper increases, causing the pads to grip the rotor more firmly to provide braking action, but with a minimal amount of brake fluid displacement. However, as the brake pads wear over time, enough fluid is displaced to force the caliper brake piston out to compensate for the amount of pad wear.

When the disc pads are replaced, the pistons are retracted to their original position and the fluid displaced to compensate for brake pad wear is returned to the master cylinder reservoir. Thus, a disc brake system cycles brake fluid once per life cycle of the brake pads, vs one complete fluid displacement cycle per brake apply/release cycle on a drum brake system. See my remarks on drum brakes below. Also note that most common brake systems are disc front and drum rear, so the fluid displacement concern only applies to the drum portion of combined systems, and the entire brake system of full drum brake systems as on the Deuce.

m-35tom said:
..... drum brakes have a relative constant level in m/c.
Only in a static condition, i.e. brakes not applied, as when you are checking the master cylinder fluid level. Drum brakes displace fluid every time the brakes are applied and released, thus the drum brake reservoir on a combined disc/drum brake system, and the entire reservoir on an all drum system is constantly "breathing". Every time a drum brake system is applied, the brake master cylinder displaces enough brake fluid to extend the pistons in the wheel cylinders to effect a braking action (2 wheel cylinders in a typical disc/drum passenger car system, 6 large wheel cylinders in a typical 3 axle Deuce). The M/C breather vent allows enough air into the M/C reservoir to replace the fluid displaced and then exhausts the air as the brakes are released and the fluid is returned to the reservoir by the action of the return springs on the brake shoes.

This "breathe in and out" cycle repeats every time the brakes are cycled. While the volume of air is not all that great, only a cubic inch or so per cycle, it is repeated over and over again every time the brakes are applied and released. Since the Deuce M/C cap does not have a rubber diaphragm to isolate the brake fluid from the air in the reservoir, the brake fluid is in constant contact with any moisture in the outside air as the brakes are cycled. If DOT 3 fluid is being used, it will eventually absorb enough water to cause problems unless the DOT 3 fluid is periodically flushed and replaced. DOT 5 fluid (NOT DOT 5+ or DOT 5.1) will not absorb water and is less likely to have a contamination problem.
 

oifvet

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I added the pics on page 1 as an "edit." Since it doesn't give the thread a fresh posting date, I'll do so now to get the update. The install of this little kit went well. It will make my PMCS go much easier.
 

dirtyfingernails

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The original "vent" line coming off the master cylinder goes to a brass block on my truck not 2 feet from the mc. How is it getting vented at that block? And what other lines meet at that block?
 

Recovry4x4

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They run up to the draft tube. Also vented in that line is the air pack and the fuel tank unless the MWO has been performed that seperate them
 

gene

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thanks for the pics oifvet. figure I will give wildwood a call tomorrow. gonna hook up the new set up once I redo the wheel cylinders, brake shoes, and air pack and replace old brake fluid. winter will be long but the shop wood stove will be stoked and the deuce will get needed TLC.

Dirtyfingernails, like your avatar. Brings me back to the late 80's riding around in that bird. Man can that thing climb. The M-2 in the back was cool too.
 

oifvet

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gene,

dirtyfingernails said:
The original "vent" line coming off the master cylinder goes to a brass block on my truck not 2 feet from the mc. How is it getting vented at that block? And what other lines meet at that block?
From what I've studied and learned about the deuce master cylinder, that was a "shared" vent location as indicated by Recovery4x4. I did need to purchase a brass plug to put in that block when I removed the vent line. It was a $2.00 part from Advance Auto. Simple enough. I'm big on Grade 8 and stainless steel for replacement hardware on just about everything on the deuce. I used stainless-steel, button-head cap screws, (Allen head), with nylon lock nuts to mount the reservoir to that little bulkhead/panel, so there won't be any concern about "vibra-loose." There is plenty of room in that service area to pour from a small bottle of DOT 5. One of the more simpler jobs I've done on the truck. No cussing at all!
 

Rattlehead

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Michigan
Oifvet, did that m/c reservoir have bellows in the cap? The cap looks kinda small, I wonder if the bellows (if it has them) is enough to make up for shoe wear plus operation.
 

JDToumanian

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Here's the one I'm using. It's from an MV, but we don't know what since it has no part number or NSN on it, and came in with a load of misc. surplus at Walker's. The cap is vented to the top of the bellows by the notch in the cap's threads. The metal tag on the side says to use DOT 3 or 4 only, no petroleum based hydraulic oils.

Jon
 

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