tiger422
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Check the TM you can turn up fuel with a boost gauge stick with the stock settings and you can live without pyrometer.
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max HP out of a 465 multi fuel?
- Thread starter Trudge
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You sure on your numbers Kyle? Mine's a D turbo and it says right on the tag 139HP. I think you may be talking about the LDS rather than the LDT on the 180HP.
i believe mine is around 200hp i have it turned up i'm running around 27psi boost at 2600 it gets around 15 at 1500 .its way faster than stock i have been running it like that for over 5yrs no problems i dont hold on the gov under load other than that i drive it like i stole iteveryengine is diffferent just cuz i get away with it doesnt mean you will . i also want to put a cummins in my truck and am trying to make an excuse to do it but i just cant seem to kill this slow little multi
27 psi boost - ?????
I installed my new gauge over the weekend and could just barely get it to 6 psi. The previous owner, M16TY, did say this truck was a little weak compared to all the other he has driven tho. I think it is turned WAY down.
Coal Cracker
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I couldn't agree with you more !
saddamsnightmare
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December 28th, 2009.
You gents are right as to HP, I had not looked up the TM-10, but I seemed to remember one of the later versions of the LD-465 turbo'd variants were up around 180 HP. The normally aspirated unit in my truck is not a fast runner, 54 hits the red line, and as I have no urge nor money right now to change out the engine.... it gets babied to death. The stock unit LD-465 seems to be more of a torque engine versus a speed engine, whereas a lot of the modern diesels I see in pick up trucks around here sound and seem to be speed diesels. The LD/LDS series probably pushed the 465 series engines about as far as could be done and not daylight the blocks (which, I gather, has happened a few times to some of our members trucks). I always figured the turbos on the 465 were for smoke abatement, because I never felt all that much more HP in the older -c and - d units, but you could hear them coming.
It was like the GM-EMD 567 locomotive engine, when GM turboed it and pushed it beyond 2000 HP in the 16 cylinder version, either the crankcase welds went or the engine life was appreciably shortened. I have considered converting my truck to a -c or -d turbo applied to the present engine, but without oil slingers for the undersides of the pistons, it might be rather more problematical then the normally aspirated engine that lives there now.
Have a safe and I hope a Happy and Prosperous New Year's 2010.
Cheers,
Kyle F. McGrogan
You gents are right as to HP, I had not looked up the TM-10, but I seemed to remember one of the later versions of the LD-465 turbo'd variants were up around 180 HP. The normally aspirated unit in my truck is not a fast runner, 54 hits the red line, and as I have no urge nor money right now to change out the engine.... it gets babied to death. The stock unit LD-465 seems to be more of a torque engine versus a speed engine, whereas a lot of the modern diesels I see in pick up trucks around here sound and seem to be speed diesels. The LD/LDS series probably pushed the 465 series engines about as far as could be done and not daylight the blocks (which, I gather, has happened a few times to some of our members trucks). I always figured the turbos on the 465 were for smoke abatement, because I never felt all that much more HP in the older -c and - d units, but you could hear them coming.
It was like the GM-EMD 567 locomotive engine, when GM turboed it and pushed it beyond 2000 HP in the 16 cylinder version, either the crankcase welds went or the engine life was appreciably shortened. I have considered converting my truck to a -c or -d turbo applied to the present engine, but without oil slingers for the undersides of the pistons, it might be rather more problematical then the normally aspirated engine that lives there now.
Have a safe and I hope a Happy and Prosperous New Year's 2010.
Cheers,
Kyle F. McGrogan
tuff-truck-guy
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gentlemen the answer to more speed from ur deuce isnt in the engine or producing more hp. check into a gear induction because the transfer is divorced it shouldent be that hard to install with a few mods to the driveline and that should in effect boost ur top speed drastically but ur spedo will not work properly and depending on the ratio used your power will be droped but unless hauling or pulling a heavy load u should be fine and with most gear inductions they can be dissengaged when not needed, "a great mod but rather expensive." sorry to any that i have offended this is just an idea for which i have never actually performed on a deuce but have on other vehicles with great results.
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Westech
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well thats it folks.. there is your answer. Mods close the post.
PsycoBob
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In a perfect world, a well-rebuilt engine with a prelube system to prevent dry starts and conservative EGT's that isn't lugged or run above redline will last **** near forever.
The consensus seem to be:
(Re)Build quality and oil starvation on startup are extremely important to engine longevity. Build quality can't really be checked without knowing exactly when/were it was rebuilt, or doing it yourself... or having it fail with low miles/hours resulting in the opinion of "MF engines suck!"
Installing a pyro (preferably pre-turbo) and optionally a boost guage makes turning up the fuel much safer. Didn't someone mention that the rear side of the manifold ran a bit hotter?
With a pyro, start cranking up the fuel a little bit at a time until you see black exhaust or temps that make you nervous. Disclaimer: this is on long, sustained pulls- not idling in the driveway.
For diesel power: lower CR to avoid high cylinder pressures at max boost, more air, more efficient turbo, better oiling for internal cooling, and less exhaust restrictions. Last item's not a problem for us.
It seems we really can't run a post-turbo intercooler on a MF due to the water-jacket's design.
Lower CR removes that whole "MF" feature- Heavy Hooker's comment about -1D pistons causing cold-start issues would be even worse on WMO, for example.
More air is a big thing for MF's- the stock air cleaner was made for a gasser. Grab an air cleaner from a tractor-trailer and see if it runs better. Turbos seem to be either small and responsive, or big and free-flowing. Someone who's name escapes me mentioned using a housing that better matched the turbine to get better performance.
Better oiling? Get an LDS. I don't know if anyone as ever tried adding LDS features to an LD/T block.
The consensus seem to be:
(Re)Build quality and oil starvation on startup are extremely important to engine longevity. Build quality can't really be checked without knowing exactly when/were it was rebuilt, or doing it yourself... or having it fail with low miles/hours resulting in the opinion of "MF engines suck!"
Installing a pyro (preferably pre-turbo) and optionally a boost guage makes turning up the fuel much safer. Didn't someone mention that the rear side of the manifold ran a bit hotter?
With a pyro, start cranking up the fuel a little bit at a time until you see black exhaust or temps that make you nervous. Disclaimer: this is on long, sustained pulls- not idling in the driveway.
For diesel power: lower CR to avoid high cylinder pressures at max boost, more air, more efficient turbo, better oiling for internal cooling, and less exhaust restrictions. Last item's not a problem for us.
It seems we really can't run a post-turbo intercooler on a MF due to the water-jacket's design. Lower CR removes that whole "MF" feature- Heavy Hooker's comment about -1D pistons causing cold-start issues would be even worse on WMO, for example.
More air is a big thing for MF's- the stock air cleaner was made for a gasser. Grab an air cleaner from a tractor-trailer and see if it runs better. Turbos seem to be either small and responsive, or big and free-flowing. Someone who's name escapes me mentioned using a housing that better matched the turbine to get better performance.
Better oiling? Get an LDS. I don't know if anyone as ever tried adding LDS features to an LD/T block.
ttfiveohranger
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If they rated a motor at 180 hp I highly doubt 10-20% increase in horsepower would cause a noticeable decrease in engine life with just about any engine. turning up the fuel a little bit and hitting more boost would probably net your more than 200hp. 180 hp version stock and your worried about 200? 
I've put turbos on stock 225 hp flywheel rated motors and seen them last longer than the truck at over 500hp, 900+ft lbs torque to the wheels. I have an HX40 and can get a big inter cooler cheap. I would like to try a bobbed deuce and see what it put down "stock" and see how long she lasts at double that power number. Not sure if anyone around here would let me stick a deuce on a dyno tho. Watch your EGTs and most diesels can be pushed harder than some here imply. A coolant heated intake is not a big deal. Once the engine warms up just about any metal intake may as well have had coolant passages in it. Inter cooler is still a good idea. Turbos can heat the air to temperatures that would destroy your engine if the coolant got that hot. The harder you push a turbo the hotter the air coming out of it is. Hot air makes less power and increases EGTs. Water/meth injection after the turbo lowers intake temp and EGTs. So does a good inter cooler.
Anyone in the Michigan area want to really push a deuce? Someone that has gone through the motor and it is put together well? Pyrometer, intercooler, water/meth injection, better turbo: lots more power capable. It also depends on the limit of the fuel system as well. Fuel timing and capability of the system may be limited. If not I wouldn't think twice about hitting 300hp+ with a solid motor to start with. Custom making a good head gasket is not as hard as you may think.
Careful with smaller inefficient turbos pushing higher boost psi. If you get to far out of a turbos efficient zone it will just push hot air, raise your EGTs, and turn your motor into scrap metal. RPMs and starting wear are more likely to kill a diesel than moderately increased well tuned power...![[thumbzup]](https://www.steelsoldiers.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_thumzup.gif "Thumbs Up [thumbzup]")
I've put turbos on stock 225 hp flywheel rated motors and seen them last longer than the truck at over 500hp, 900+ft lbs torque to the wheels. I have an HX40 and can get a big inter cooler cheap. I would like to try a bobbed deuce and see what it put down "stock" and see how long she lasts at double that power number. Not sure if anyone around here would let me stick a deuce on a dyno tho. Watch your EGTs and most diesels can be pushed harder than some here imply. A coolant heated intake is not a big deal. Once the engine warms up just about any metal intake may as well have had coolant passages in it. Inter cooler is still a good idea. Turbos can heat the air to temperatures that would destroy your engine if the coolant got that hot. The harder you push a turbo the hotter the air coming out of it is. Hot air makes less power and increases EGTs. Water/meth injection after the turbo lowers intake temp and EGTs. So does a good inter cooler. Anyone in the Michigan area want to really push a deuce? Someone that has gone through the motor and it is put together well? Pyrometer, intercooler, water/meth injection, better turbo: lots more power capable. It also depends on the limit of the fuel system as well. Fuel timing and capability of the system may be limited. If not I wouldn't think twice about hitting 300hp+ with a solid motor to start with. Custom making a good head gasket is not as hard as you may think.
Careful with smaller inefficient turbos pushing higher boost psi. If you get to far out of a turbos efficient zone it will just push hot air, raise your EGTs, and turn your motor into scrap metal. RPMs and starting wear are more likely to kill a diesel than moderately increased well tuned power...
tm america
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The two problems that are a big issue with the multi are head gaskets and the rods. Head gaskets are easily fixed with kemetic gaskets. The rods are a whole different problem .the fact that you are slinging a five-eight pound piston becomes a issue. could you get a set of custom rods made that would probably hold up but the 1500+ bill will be a little harsh they could run up near the 3000-4000 dollar range.egt is also easily taken care of but the cost of making rods ,head gaskets, innercooler -injectors are way more than the cost and work of putting a cummins in there. Turn up the fuel on the cummins and have 500+hp rather than 300hp of qustionible multifuel power.
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ttfiveohranger
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Do you know the safe limit of the rods at 2600 rpms. If they came stock rated at 180 in some versions I imagine a multifuel would be fine at 240-60 range maybe 300. The added torque is what is also very nice across the power band with a good turbo. I have a friend who dabbles with injectors. I would have him do it as long as he hasn't sold his equipment yet. Would like to see what they actual put out for hp when fuel is turned up some...
I am a hot rod'R at heart.. always more power, but I do my research. I find out what I can get away with safely unless I have a few spare engines laying around.. sounds like rods and head gaskets on these motors.
I agree if you want 500 hp reliably a Cummins is great! The DT466 will break the drive train in any deuce before they a pushed to the limit.
I wouldn't push a multifuel to 500.. I don't think 250-300 hp is that questionable. Did they really put that marginal of rods in there? Diesels are usually over built in the rotating assembly. I would think head bolts and gaskets would be more likely.
I am a hot rod'R at heart.. always more power, but I do my research. I find out what I can get away with safely unless I have a few spare engines laying around.. sounds like rods and head gaskets on these motors.
I agree if you want 500 hp reliably a Cummins is great! The DT466 will break the drive train in any deuce before they a pushed to the limit.
I wouldn't push a multifuel to 500.. I don't think 250-300 hp is that questionable. Did they really put that marginal of rods in there? Diesels are usually over built in the rotating assembly. I would think head bolts and gaskets would be more likely.
rebel_raider
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As heavy duty as every thing else is about that motor, I would think it very unlikely that they skimped on rods. You just have to be careful with what you do. It's not a question of "if", but when it will break if you don't take care of it and abuse it.
tm america
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They definately skimped on the rods. Just do a search on it you'll see it is quite common to throw a rod out the side of the block even without the fuel turned up. Over rev it one time and hello new inspection hole in the block.The gov built these trucks with govs on them for a reason remember it is a 22 to 1 engine nearly 500cid 6 cyl that means a big heavy piston . I am pushing right around 27psi of boost on mine. My motor is a ldt465-1d. but it has a lds 427 turbo and injection pump . I would estimate my motor around 210-225 hp i get around 12psi of boost at 1500rpm .mine is holding together so far. But i wouldnt think about pushing it futher without puttng titanium rods in there .My truck was rebuilt by the gov in 92 and motor was done to lds specs .
It would be interesting to see how much power it takes to make one come apart.put it on the dyno and turn it up till it makes a nice big boom. just to know .But the ldt465 was never rated above 140hp from the factory. The lds465 was rated at 180 - 210 but it was a lower compression motor with a bigger turbo . it had more rings on the pistons and an extra oil cooler tube pointed at the bottom of the pistons . different injector,injector pump and the pump timing was different . all this makes a big difference in durability. but the bottom line is they never put more than 210hp to those rods.anything more is gonna be very risky. me knowing how they fail i wouldnt try it
It would be interesting to see how much power it takes to make one come apart.put it on the dyno and turn it up till it makes a nice big boom. just to know .But the ldt465 was never rated above 140hp from the factory. The lds465 was rated at 180 - 210 but it was a lower compression motor with a bigger turbo . it had more rings on the pistons and an extra oil cooler tube pointed at the bottom of the pistons . different injector,injector pump and the pump timing was different . all this makes a big difference in durability. but the bottom line is they never put more than 210hp to those rods.anything more is gonna be very risky. me knowing how they fail i wouldnt try it
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ttfiveohranger
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very true. I do my research... I post on forums and make sure too many people don't say I'm crazy! (I know am crazy tho) I just don't go crank up the fuel on a tired motor and run higher rpm govern'd all day... I don't turn up fuel on a diesel unless i have more cooler air coming in, its a solid motor and i have a good setup for egt's. I drive my stuff hard, but i don't abuse it. I use high end oil/ filters and i change fluids more often then needed. Proper fueling, more air, watch my egts... I wouldn't think twice about putting an hx40, big intercooler, head gasket, on a gone through multifuel(solid rebuild), then turning up the boost with a pyrometer. autometer pyro's can be had for 100 ish.
I plan on starting with a motor that truck pullers use at 1000-3000 hp in the 5-600 range.
I would put a pyro on a stock motor.. fuel issues can melt your pistons.. I imagine the huge smoke cloud would let most people know tho....
I read here someone was hitting 27 psi with a stock turbo... be careful you don't push a turbo to hard and blow too hot of air in your engine... less power at times and higher egt's can= melted engine...
I think rpm would kill the rods/valve train before cooler, higher pressure air charge and some more fuel.
Anyone push the rpms on these? any valve train upgrades?
I plan on starting with a motor that truck pullers use at 1000-3000 hp in the 5-600 range.
I would put a pyro on a stock motor.. fuel issues can melt your pistons.. I imagine the huge smoke cloud would let most people know tho....
I read here someone was hitting 27 psi with a stock turbo... be careful you don't push a turbo to hard and blow too hot of air in your engine... less power at times and higher egt's can= melted engine...
I think rpm would kill the rods/valve train before cooler, higher pressure air charge and some more fuel.
Anyone push the rpms on these? any valve train upgrades?
ttfiveohranger
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crazy you posted as I was... 27 psi-nearly 500ci and you think you only have 210-225hp? Do you have a pyrometer.. improper fueling and to many rpms will put a hole in most diesels. Do you know the psi of boost the motor at the 140hp and the 180-210hp?
ttfiveohranger
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More hp the piston heats up (watch egts) in the bore, only so much ring gap, and rod will go through the block. rods breaking are not always weak rods...
what are the specs for ring gap and piston to bore,, more hp it is a good idea to increase the ring gap at times.
If rpm kills the motor so fast.. could valve float be an issue.. valves hitting the pistons would not help the rods either.
Its too bad if the rods are that marginal...
what are the specs for ring gap and piston to bore,, more hp it is a good idea to increase the ring gap at times.
If rpm kills the motor so fast.. could valve float be an issue.. valves hitting the pistons would not help the rods either.
Its too bad if the rods are that marginal...
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Trudge
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good info..so how do you make that head gasket??
i just bought a aftermarket one but good to know for next time...............
ps im planning a twin turbo setup, not so much for peek power as much as power where i want it
QUESTION: where can i get a cheep after cooler to fit my duece?
i just bought a aftermarket one but good to know for next time...............
ps im planning a twin turbo setup, not so much for peek power as much as power where i want it
QUESTION: where can i get a cheep after cooler to fit my duece?
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Metal is a lot stronger in compression than tension. Power compresses the rod (where it is strong). The piston reversal at TDC puts the rod in tension. The force increases at an exponential rate as RPM goes up. This is why a lot of rods fail. Tension can also cause the big end to go out of round at extreme RPM. It takes only .001"deformation to turn a rod bearing into an oil wiper.
Increased power puts lot of thermal stress on the pistons. (deleted) These have a high surface area piston crown (w/o steel or thermal coatings). Their high compression ratio is not what you want when running high boost.
I have my LD (turbo added) turned up and set to run 12psi at 2500rpm (13 at 2600). It has been reliable. EGT will run high under heavy towing loads especially at the lower end or the operation range(~1500rpm). I consider 1000*F too high for continuous duty (post turbo probe) and prefer to stay at or under 950*F. It the duration is short (less than a minute) I think 1000*F is OK.
Increased power puts lot of thermal stress on the pistons. (deleted) These have a high surface area piston crown (w/o steel or thermal coatings). Their high compression ratio is not what you want when running high boost.
I have my LD (turbo added) turned up and set to run 12psi at 2500rpm (13 at 2600). It has been reliable. EGT will run high under heavy towing loads especially at the lower end or the operation range(~1500rpm). I consider 1000*F too high for continuous duty (post turbo probe) and prefer to stay at or under 950*F. It the duration is short (less than a minute) I think 1000*F is OK.
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ttfiveohranger
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Your post turbo EGT probe would worry me.. It could be higher before the turbo.
Making your own head gasket involves using the stock one as a template. I've used thick copper gaskets and stainless steel to lower compression on a motor. I usually emboss the copper around coolant and oil passages along with a tiny bit of ultra copper if I think something may leak.. High strength head studs are good to use as well. I always have a friend at a shop order me the sheets of material. I am pretty sure you can find some gasket material with a decent google search.
(by emboss I mean using rounded off punch and a piece of wood to carefully round the gasket material up around the passages)
Porting of the cylinder head and custom spacer gaskets can lower compression. Slightly larger ring gap prevent issues with higher temps and power levels. I've made custom oil squirters to cool pistons before. You need to be very careful with this kind of stuff if you have never rebuilt a motor. I don't know where these heads have extra material that could be removed... and safe place to tap the oil system and run my copper lines etc and so forth.
Making your own head gasket involves using the stock one as a template. I've used thick copper gaskets and stainless steel to lower compression on a motor. I usually emboss the copper around coolant and oil passages along with a tiny bit of ultra copper if I think something may leak.. High strength head studs are good to use as well. I always have a friend at a shop order me the sheets of material. I am pretty sure you can find some gasket material with a decent google search.
(by emboss I mean using rounded off punch and a piece of wood to carefully round the gasket material up around the passages)
Porting of the cylinder head and custom spacer gaskets can lower compression. Slightly larger ring gap prevent issues with higher temps and power levels. I've made custom oil squirters to cool pistons before. You need to be very careful with this kind of stuff if you have never rebuilt a motor.
I don't know where these heads have extra material that could be removed... and safe place to tap the oil system and run my copper lines etc and so forth.
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