Max towing capacity of a M35?

[Westech]

sounds good to me. The only thing that get me a little fussy is the brakes of the deuce... There small for that size of truck. I bet you anything that if you check out the brakes of that little dump truck towing a backhoe or what not is going to have way larger stopping power then the deuce. the deuce brakes are really not that much larger then a 1 ton truck.

 

[houdel]

Inadequate power and lack of speed. I'm assuming you had an 800 series 5 ton which is a much larger truck than the Deuce. You might want to think about a M54 5 ton cargo or M52 5 ton tractor. Closer in size to the Deuce and 50% more horsepower, its no Freightliner but may be a better compromise.

My '07 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD crew cab 4x4 has a Duramax diesel and Allison trans. It is rated to tow 13,000 lbs with a ball hitch and 13,600 lbs with a gooseneck or 5th wheel hitch. The 3500 series is rated 13,000 with a ball hitch and up to 16,500 with a gooseneck or 5th wheel hitch. Of course, that's on a smooth paved road. The Deuces are most likely derated due to the more severe conditions they were designed to operate in. But as DD pointed out, if you exceed the data plate capacity and get in trouble, your butt is going to be left hanging in the wind BIG time!

 

[Autocar]

Lee, you are correct. I had an m813. Not being familiar with a deuce-are the brakes really undersize and stopping is a problem? You are probably also correct on legal issues. Does anyone know what the m813 or m54 is rated at for towing?

 

[halftrack]

I talked to a state trooper and we both have the understanding that as long as I am "not for hire", pulling the trailer with the 5 ton tractor is not illegal, so no worries there. I see that several have posted about a legality concern. He said as long as it was for personal use "like a RV I guess" and not being used commerically, a CDL was not needed for that setup. I'm sure if I was hauling a MBT thats a different story.

 

[houdel]

The Deuce brakes are slightly better than barely adequate in performance. Remember, this truck was designed in 1949 and went into series production in 1950. I don't believe the brakes have seen much improvement since then except for possibly upgraded linings, so you are talking 1950's braking performance. Yes, it will stop, but it ain't gonna stop on a dime.

M54A2 (Cargo Truck) data from 9-2320-211-10: Payload, 20,000 lb highway, 10,000 lb CC; Max towed load, 30,000 lb highway, 15,000 lb CC

M52A2 (Truck Tractor) data from 9-2320-211-10: Payload (on 5th wheel), 25,000 lb highway, 15,000 lb CC; Max towed load, 55,000 lb highway, 30,000 lb CC

M813 (Cargo Truck) data from 9-2320-260-10: Payload, 10,000 lb; Max towed load, 15,000 lb, manual does not specify highway or cross country.

 

[halftrack]

I decided to go with this setup for safety reasons. However, the 5 ton dragged butt also going up and down some hills. The M35 would of caught hell. Sorry for the not so good picture.

 

[kcimb]

I decided to go with this setup for safety reasons. However, the 5 ton dragged butt also going up and down some hills. The M35 would of caught heck. Sorry for the not so good picture.

I need to get a 5 ton tractor and gooseneck trailer...would make moving stuff around so much easier. Tractors are somewhat impractical because you don't have a cargo bed in the back to put stuff and the frame is slightly shorter.

Nice truck, trailer, and Half track. The halftrack alone is worth a good photo thread in the armour section (not that I'm suggesting anything..no way, that's beyond me)

 

[sprucemt]

I talked to a state trooper and we both have the understanding that as long as I am "not for hire", pulling the trailer with the 5 ton tractor is not illegal, so no worries there. I see that several have posted about a legality concern. He said as long as it was for personal use "like a RV I guess" and not being used commerically, a CDL was not needed for that setup. I'm sure if I was hauling a MBT thats a different story.

I would strongly suggest that you check with your state licencing dept in regards to the trailer being over 10000 lbs and how it affects your drivers licence class. Please review my comments on the post http://steelsoldiers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4648&highlight=cdl
My experience of driving a 14500 lb truck with a 18000 lb trailer here in NY require a class A licence with restriction on the truck to pull a trailer over 10000 lbs.
I would also suggest reviewing the FMCS Regs. In NY, except for historical plates, I have not been able to find personal use exemptions when refering to large trucks and trailers either in drivers licencing or registrations. Take a look at your licence and check with the DMV as to what can you legally drive weight wise.

 

[rmgill]

Don, as I've posted before, unless you're hauling in relation to a business or for some sort of renumeration (prize winnings are NOT renumeration), the FMCSA does not care if you've got a car or a 80,000 Gross Combined weight tractor/trailer setup. The relevant sections are 390.3 (f)(3). The definitions (in commerce) in part 383 also exclude our hobby vehicles from the DOT number/license requirements. Your minimum standard will be your state's license requirements. (the feds don't consider us commercial and don't care).

 

[sprucemt]

Ryan, as I have posted before, you will see by my post's, that I disagree with you and others stance on this issue. On other post's I have stated my stance with facts that are currently available. Licensing, registrations and safety equipment is a very serious issue and in this post where members are dangerously overloading there MV's and blatantly ignoring state and federal law someone is going to have to say something. Having a historical plate on your vehicle in NY state gives you some allowable excemptions. After that there is only one choice and that would be commercial plates and all the requirments that go with that choice. I have already had my run in with DOT (4 times non-accident). You all will too. And god forbid any member have an accident with a duece or a 5 ton, towing a trailer over 10000 lbs. Because reallity will sink in and you will not like what you will be facing because of ignorance or the unwillingness to obey the law.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/390.3.htm

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/383.5.htm

These are the two FMCSA items qouted. It is ok to disagree here on this forum, but please make sure you take a good attorney to court with you when it's your time to deal with anything to do with this discussion.

 

[Recovry4x4]

I like a healthy discussion. I just copied this from the fed regs. The one thing that struck me was the part of the phrase "used in commerce". That looks to me like used in commerce is a key phrase on the whole shebang. If you took commerce out of your vehicle would you stil be required by fed regs to have a CDL? This aside, the better check would be state regs as they can impose a more strict regulation.

"Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle-

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section."

 

[sprucemt]

Kenny, please do not stop there. Look at the terms "trades", "traffic" and "transportation" in http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/383.5.htm in regards to "in Commerce".
In NY other than historic plates or RV's, I have not found any regs that apply to non -commercial vehicles in the weight class over 10001 lbs. Now remember there are multiple definitions within the FMCSA depending what section you are reading. You really need to be aware of all the sections of the FMCSA regs.

 

[sprucemt]

Now here is something to think about. If you are driving a vehicle over 10001 lbs and you go to a DRMO to pick up something you have purchased,
a. Are you not "traffic"?
b. Have you not fueled the vehicle and have now effected commerce or does your reason for the trip in the first place effect commerce?
c. Have you not just become a commercial motor vehicle because you just replaced a commercial delivery company and are hauling in relation to the replaced buisness?
d. Isn't the stuff you justed picked up at the DRMO, "property"?
Just food for thought.

 

[emmado22]

We can argue the legalities of verbage, but one thing NOONE here or anywhere else can change is the Laws of Physics.. When your pulling your "physically overweight for the vehicles brakes/steering/load capacity/whatever" your gonna be in a world of hurt when you cant control the vehicle..... And no laywer and all verbage in the world wont change anything in those few seconds when you figure out you lost control of the truck..

Everyone, when some MV'er kills some soccer mom and her minivan full of kids when the MV'er is within or not within the legal weights, licence class, etc, ALL of us are gonna pay when we give the Govt more ammo to stop sales, stop registration or take away our MV's.

So keep doing stupid things, haul 30,000# in a truck that has data plates for only carrying 6,000# max towed load, dont do a PMCS or pull maintaince on your truck... Then when you kill someone, after the legal stuff YOU go thru and the dust has settled with the lawsuits, when the the DMV/GOVT/GL somehow starts killing off the hobby more than they are already doing, when we get pissed at you, dont say a dam word...

Just my .02..................

 

[bottleworks]

With regard to the legal issues of towing in general, I can only speak of NC. In NC, if towing a trailer 10,000 Lbs or greater, you MUST have a class A license. However, you do not need a class A CDL. You can get a non commercial class A license. With this license, you can now legally drive with that 10K+ trailer. Your truck then needs to have enough weight paid on your registration to drive the truck/tailer combination on the road.

 

[rmgill]

These are the two FMCSA items qouted. It is ok to disagree here on this forum, but please make sure you take a good attorney to court with you when it's your time to deal with anything to do with this discussion.

Don, I have a letter, on official letter head from the FMCSA examiner for Georgia. He specifically cites that Commerce is business purpses. Look at the definitions section and the other sections of the. I have discussed this ad nausium with him and with the legislative and state compliance director in Washington DC. Both are very clear on what it means.

Buying fuel for your personal vehicle is NOT interstate commerce for the purposes of the FMCSA. Driving across the state line on vacation is not interstate commerce for the purposes of the FMCSA.

I'll direct your attention to question 21 of the interpretations/Q&A page on the FMCSA site.

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.


If you're going to a race with your truck and trailer and your race trailer is 15000 lbs. As long as you don't plaster sponsor stickers on your car or your trailer, then you're not commercial.

If you use an RV that's over 26,000 lbs for a business purpose, (say as a point of sale vehicle) then it IS commercial.

If you drive a deuce around or a 5 ton for that matter with your armored car to WWII events and even win prize money, you are NOT commercial.

Now here is something to think about. If you are driving a vehicle over 10001 lbs and you go to a DRMO to pick up something you have purchased,
a. Are you not "traffic"?

So is an RV, those are not commercial. It's based on use, NOT equipment which delinates an RV from a bus. Both are used across state lines, both transport people, both haul baggage. Because you're not doing it for a business means it's not commerce.

b. Have you not fueled the vehicle and have now effected commerce or does your reason for the trip in the first place effect commerce?

Do you pay IFTA Taxes on your personal vehicle? If it's a personal vehicle it's not commercial, that's why you don't pay. Same thing for IRP. Same thing for RVs.

c. Have you not just become a commercial motor vehicle because you just replaced a commercial delivery company and are hauling in relation to the replaced buisness?

Not at all. You no more become commercial when you drive your car or pickup across state lines than when you drive a deuce or a 5 ton across state lines. It's not commercial.

d. Isn't the stuff you justed picked up at the DRMO, "property"?
Just food for thought.

Personal property. Not business property. Haul for someone else and you're dipping into commercial purposes. Now, in your case, you have a business selling MV parts correct? Your truck could easily be interpreted as commercial. Do you have a DOT number on your Deuce? You should have one.

By all means, call the FMCSA, ask for a director or a compliance officer that knows the regs. Get them to explain 390.3. You'll be surprised.

 

[sprucemt]

Bottleworks, if you can, please post a link to the NC licensing data. In 2005 NY removed all of the non-cdl licensing except for farm. You can review the data on the CDL post in conversations. I realize each state has different laws but what I see is posters thru out steelsoldiers, live nationwide and their opinions and beliefs (including mine, but I really try not to) may be misleading to members not residing in their area. The states were required to adopt FMCSA regs and some have and some have more slowly than others. With your NC license you would be driving illegaly in NY with the combo you just stated. Plus you would be inter-state commerce which is a whole nother subject. The FMCSA regs are supposed to eliminate that issue.

 

[sprucemt]

Ryan, While we both posting, bottleworks made a valid statement on licensing in his state of NC. It differs from NY, which has eliminated non-cdl licenses.
We are discussing multiple issues cojoined by the fact that members may be using their vehicles as historical uses and others are clearly using them for commercial or dare I say semi-commercial purposes.
I do not have issues with MV owners who use their vehicles as a true hobbiest as long as the correct safety equipment required is on board and are correctly licensed for the weight class of vehicle all of which varies state by state.

Historic plates are available in NY with restrictions of use. The licensing of the driver in NY, in what class needed would be an issue here.

RV has a seperate license plate and in NY a seperate driver license endorsement and is not part of my research and has nothing to do with MV's or this discussion.

All other plates in NY are commercial plates.

In NY the FMCSA is managed by the NYSDOT and any other cop that feels like dealing with it as most if not all of the law is duplicated by NY State law.

I already know and already have stated that it is at the discretion of the enforcement officer at the time, how they will interpret the laws. They write the tickets and you go to court.

When applicable, I do run USDOT numbers, I do follow the law, and I do it safely. I no longer try to find loopholes in the law. It is not worth it.

 

[emmado22]

Argue the legalities all you want (and should), but Mr Newton and Mr. Murphy will trump all.... Because they have their own laws and rules...

Mr. Newtons are known worldwide, and accepted as laws that CANNOT be broken.

Mr. Murphy's laws, he makes up and changes any time he chooses..

Both will kick you in the a$$ with MV amd most other matters... And all of us have experienced both of them.

 

[rmgill]

When applicable, I do run USDOT numbers, I do follow the law, and I do it safely. I no longer try to find loopholes in the law. It is not worth it.

Laws that aren't applicable aren't loopholes. They're what they're intended or not intended for. The FMCSA regulates interestate commerciual use of Commercial Motor Vehicles. Where it gets interesting is where it trenches on states like New York or the like that excempt vehicles based on equipment and not use becuase that violates the base principles of the FMCSRs.

Case in point an RV or a Bus. Police departments like to use Buses for moving recruits around. Per the FMCSR's they need to be licensed and operated as CMVs with a passenger endorsement. The Emergency Vehicle excemption is not a loophole, it's an excemption for emergency vehicles. Just because you tack some lights on a bus that's normally used to move recruits doesn't make it an emergency vehicle (that's from the Director in DC who work son state compliance).

The second one is one I mentioned already, RVs. Used by a private individual for personal pleasure/travel means it's not commercial. Used by a sales rep to sell his brand of tools out of is commercial. If NYS excempts RVs based on equipment then they are technically in violation of the compliance requirements of the FMCSRs and the highway funding which is attached to said compliance.

States totally disregard the FMCSRs, but that means they don't get to eat at the Federal Highway trough.

While we both posting, bottleworks made a valid statement on licensing in his state of NC. It differs from NY, which has eliminated non-cdl licenses.

North Carolina is a very good example. Their drives manual, in describing the various classes, shows what looks like a 5 ton military truck with a box in the bed enclosing the words "Your Property" and is described as being a "Non Commercial Class B". This was the serindipitous moment where I realized that some states don't ahve their regulations screwed up based on "equipment" vs "use".

Commercial Motor Vehicles are defined by not just the size, but also the use. If they're NOT in a specific use (ie commercial) then they're not CMVs under federal law and then your only worries are if your own state is more strict or not.

We are discussing multiple issues cojoined by the fact that members may be using their vehicles as historical uses and others are clearly using them for commercial or dare I say semi-commercial purposes.
I do not have issues with MV owners who use their vehicles as a true hobbiest as long as the correct safety equipment required is on board and are correctly licensed for the weight class of vehicle all of which varies state by state.


Right, that's why I said the issue was state compliance (both ways really). For the most part, where it's used for hobby purposes its not commercial according to the Feds. Again, as I said, refer to 390.3 and 383.5. It's plain language, if a cop can't read it a have a clue then he needs to get a different job. Frankly having a letter from the FMCSA is a nice piece of ammunition both on the side of the road and in the courtroom.

The core issue of course is that states MUST comply with the federal law and if they don't they're jepardizing federal funding for their highways. Pointing out that an interpretation they have will take them that direction is something a lot of junior attorneys DON'T want to take.