MEP 002 engine swap

[rickf]

I know this may sound like sacrilege but has anyone ever done a swap to a kubota 3 cylinder diesel engine? One of my 002's just will not run right and I have diagnosed it till I am blue in the face. I bought this from a guy who did the same thing and gave up and sold it to me cheap. I already have one that runs just fine and I have an old mower with the Kubota engine in it just sitting there looking for a home. Would be nice to have a 12 volt, water cooled, quiet genset with the monster GI head on it.

 

[Triple Jim]

It would take quite a commitment if you wanted the whole system to be 12v.

 

[rickf]

Hadn't really given too much thought to all the 24 volt controls on the generator itself. I don't think that would be a deal killer since I could still run the original battery system as is and run the engine off of it's own battery separate from the genset. Could probably even mount a more modern GM style 24 volt alternator on the engine as the charging unit for the genset batteries and eliminate the touchy DC regulator setup on the genset. I am looking more at function than originality. Even though I have not had any issues with the DC charging system I have seen many others that have and it looks to be a royal pain and not cheap to repair.

 

[Chainbreaker]

I guess it comes down to which is easier: Converting over to the Kubota 3 cylinder or diagnosing/repairing the MEP-002a's Onan engine?

I don't doubt you or the previous owners troubleshooting but there is always a fix once you locate the issue. I don't recall any threads here lately where you solicited SS member help, though if you did it may be worth linking the thread so we can take another run at it. It could be something relatively easy to fix versus taking on the Kubota conversion.

On the Kubota conversion, the question I would have is: How would you maintain the Kubota engine at 1800 RPM (60 Hz) due to varying electrical loads? Do you find a way to adapt the MEP's flyball governor system or use some kind of aftermarket controller/servo setup?

BTW, I do have a Kubota 3 cylinder engine mower and it is a solid unit. So I can understand your desire to use it but it would be a shame to go to all that work if the Onan engine can be fixed.

 

[rickf]

I will have to dredge up that thread. Went over the issues in pretty good detail at the time but it has been quite some time ago. The mower was one we had at work and the mower part of it is gone. It was a Jacobson three wheel front deck mower and it was a bear to run. Hard as hell to steer and when you picked up the deck the steering got real easy, mainly because then you had no traction on the single rear tire. When they retired it I brought it home and used it here for a while then relegated it to the back forty cutting the high grass and weeds and then the steering got to the point where it was just too hard to work. I was not going to pay what it cost to fix a commercial mower for home use. Especially one with that many hours on it. The engine and hydraulics were still working fine when I parked it so I have no doubts it will run when I drag it out and cut off all the extras that are not needed.

 

[rickf]

Took 2 hours of searching back through my old posts but I found it! beginning of March 2011!!!!!
MEP-002 Rough Running

MEP-002 rough running

Did a search and could not come up with anything so here is my problem. MEP-002, starts and runs on one cylinder with other kicking in once in a while. Will eventually smooth out and run good only to almost die like a loss of fuel. Will not usually die but struggles to come back, spark knock for...

www.steelsoldiers.com

 

[Chainbreaker]

I will have to dredge up that thread. Went over the issues in pretty good detail at the time but it has been quite some time ago.

...It was a Jacobson three wheel front deck mower and it was a bear to run. Hard as hell to steer and when you picked up the deck the steering got real easy, mainly because then you had no traction on the single rear tire.... .

Yes, dredge up your old thread on your engine problems, you never know if member here can offer some overlooked troubleshooting advice to locate the issue.

Wow, that Kubota powered mower definitely sounded like a bear to manage!

Fortunately my 3 cylinder Kubota engine came via a now 4 year old GR2120 Kubota riding mower. It's a "mowing machine" with all wheel drive, power steering, cruise control & hydraulic lift deck and will turn on a ~18 radius due to hydraulic independently clutched all wheel drive train system called "Glide Steer". I needed it to mow hilly terrain with sometimes wet slick turf with significant slope angles in various areas. I'll probably run that Kubota mower until the engine goes belly up or I do!

 

[Chainbreaker]

Took 2 hours of searching back through my old posts but I found it! beginning of March 2011!!!!!
MEP-002 Rough Running

MEP-002 rough running

Did a search and could not come up with anything so here is my problem. MEP-002, starts and runs on one cylinder with other kicking in once in a while. Will eventually smooth out and run good only to almost die like a loss of fuel. Will not usually die but struggles to come back, spark knock for...

www.steelsoldiers.com

After quickly reading through your resurrected thread link above it seems you may have to dive a bit deeper to sort out that engine. I'm wondering if it is something as simple as a broken/cracked plunger guide, wrong timing button, general timing issue or a valve train related issue?

Not sure what you did so far, but removing and methodically going through the injection pump...thoroughly cleaning and verifying its 100% up to spec would seem to be a logical priority. If that doesn't reveal anything then maybe its time to pull the heads and inspect valves, springs, piston tops, cylinder condition etc.

Since its actually a running engine, though sporadic running, it seems worthwhile to troubleshoot it deeper to reveal the offending issue.

 

[rickf]

I am going to be moving it in the coming week to do some cleaning of the yard and will probably get back on it soon. If I remember correctly it looked like someone had already replaced the pump at one time. My main concern at this point is parts. Timing buttons are made of gold, Injectors are unobtanium, glow plugs I have not seen offered for years. This was a very low hour unit so I tend to doubt head/valve issues but never know. Somewhere I have a diesel compression gauge but I don't know if I have the adapters needed to connect it to that engine.

 

[Ray70]

You're right that parts are sometimes hard to come by but careful research will turn up that there are still a few places where you can get the parts you listed at reasonable prices. For example, I recently needed a #14 timing button... couple places wanted over $100 each, but further digging found it for $12.
Some other sizes as cheap as $6 but the rare thicker ones are a bit more expensive...

Needed head gaskets once... several places wanted $100+ each. They are actually only $12 direct from Cummins.

The machines in general are very easy to work on, so I would suggest diving in and get to the bottom of it. I'm sure you, along with the fine folks here will get it fixed!

The IP is really the only item that "IF" it is damaged catastrophically it may be the Go/No-Go gating factor on a cost effective repair!

If you need / want a compression adapter I have machined my own for both the 002/003 and the 802/803 and have loaned them out to SS members several times.
I'd be glad to send it to you to borrow, if it comes to that.

The Kubota swap sounds great, but may end up being a bit more involved than worth while.

 

[chb32nj]

One thing you need to consider in doing the engine swap is how are you going to connect the kubota engine to the Gen Head? In my opinion I think you would have to spend a ton of $$$ at a machine shop. From my adventure last winter taking apart the Gen End on my 002a that did not produce power I can tell you that the flywheel side of the Gen Head has no support. It relies on the flywheel of the engine for a perfect alignment and support. The only bearing is in the bell end. Therefore you would have to machine an adapter housing to mate the Gen End to the Engine which in turn means you would have to have the engine mounts perfectly aligned because you are now setting the clearance or center spacing for the rotor on the Gen Head. If you went with a driveshaft setup you would still need some kind of adapter plate mounted to a spindle that would need some kind of bearing support and would still need to be perfectly centered to keep the rotor perfectly centered. Then you would have to figure out how you are going to keep all the furry little friends out because the end of the Gen housing would be exposed. This Gen Head is not like a 3pt hitch Generator that you would get from Tractor Supply or Northern Tool. I took plenty of pictures of the Gen Head / Engine separation that I can send you if you want them. My advice to you is to sell that kubota engine and put the proceeds towards fixing your engine. If you think your engine is not worth fixing, I would find a replacement engine (there are a couple of new crate engines around) before I tried to couple a different engine to it. If you need a hand, give me a call.
I just want to repeat that this is my opinion only, and I am basing it on my experience from fixing the Gen Head on my 002a.

 

[SCSG-G4]

If you think your engine is not worth fixing, I would find a replacement engine (there are a couple of new crate engines around) before I tried to couple a different engine to it. If you need a hand, give me a call.

And you know where there are a couple of used engines that could be robbed for parts.

 

[rickf]

One thing you need to consider in doing the engine swap is how are you going to connect the kubota engine to the Gen Head? In my opinion I think you would have to spend a ton of $$$ at a machine shop. From my adventure last winter taking apart the Gen End on my 002a that did not produce power I can tell you that the flywheel side of the Gen Head has no support. It relies on the flywheel of the engine for a perfect alignment and support. The only bearing is in the bell end. Therefore you would have to machine an adapter housing to mate the Gen End to the Engine which in turn means you would have to have the engine mounts perfectly aligned because you are now setting the clearance or center spacing for the rotor on the Gen Head. If you went with a driveshaft setup you would still need some kind of adapter plate mounted to a spindle that would need some kind of bearing support and would still need to be perfectly centered to keep the rotor perfectly centered. Then you would have to figure out how you are going to keep all the furry little friends out because the end of the Gen housing would be exposed. This Gen Head is not like a 3pt hitch Generator that you would get from Tractor Supply or Northern Tool. I took plenty of pictures of the Gen Head / Engine separation that I can send you if you want them. My advice to you is to sell that kubota engine and put the proceeds towards fixing your engine. If you think your engine is not worth fixing, I would find a replacement engine (there are a couple of new crate engines around) before I tried to couple a different engine to it. If you need a hand, give me a call.
I just want to repeat that this is my opinion only, and I am basing it on my experience from fixing the Gen Head on my 002a.

Thanks for that info, I was not aware that the generator had no end bearings. That pretty much ends that idea. And Mike, you know if I drive down there from NJ for parts I am pretty likely to stay there!. I have another belt driven generator head I could use for that engine or I might use it for something else since it already has the hydraulics on it. I am not getting rid of it. The rest of the mower surrounding it is going to the scrapper.
Ray, in the next few weeks I will get back on it and I will be in touch.

 

[Guyfang]

Place marker

 

[rickf]

Sorry, I have not gotten around to working on this set yet. I do think I have given up on the engine swap based on the info given here, especially when I find out the generator section has no separate end bearing on the engine end. Possibly that was done for ease of installation of new engines and not have to worry about perfect shaft alignment? Just seems to me that it is putting a lot of extra strain on the rear main bearing. Two words come to mind, Lowest bidder!

 

[Ray70]

I would say you're correct about the simpler alignment aspect. Many similar type pieces of equipment are built this way. It definitely simplifies assembly as well as repairs. You would be hard pressed to get any engine and driven unit bolted solidly together if both used bearings on both ends unless you use a flex coupling in the middle.
Ever see how the prop shaft has to be aligned to the output flange on in inboard engine boat?
Even your car engine and transmission essentially work on a similar principal.
I really don't see it as a negative aspect but rather a simpler, more reliable, smoother operating design.
Unfortunately it does complicate man's instinct to modify everything he can!
But yea.... probably still went to the low bidder, although not due to the single bearing design..

 

[rickf]

Oh I am well aware of lining up outdrives! But in cars you have to remember that a manual transmission has input bearings AND a pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft so that all has to be perfect alignment. Automatics have some room for play but if there is a misalignment I can assure you the flex plate will crack in a few thousand miles. Seen it happen many times.

 

[Ray70]

Sort of... the input shaft on a stick is a single bearing on the far end of the input shaft, right before where it meets the main shaft, allowing some slight movement of input shaft at the tip where the pilot bearing is. The pilot bearing alone is what keeps the clutch and shaft in perfect alignment with the crankshaft. This is why a worn pilot bearing ( bushing in the old days ) causes clutch chatter and vibration, by letting the shafts ( and clutch disc ) misalign.
Same with an automatic, the pump shaft and input shaft float slightly, allowing them to "align" with the axis of the converter, which centers itself perfectly in the crank's counterbore, not on the mounting bolts.
Neither one has both front and rear fixed bearings and a single, solid shaft between those 2 bearings and both can tolerate a small misalignment.
Go beyond the tolerable limit ( only possible with incorrect, damaged or worn components ) and yes, flex plates will crack.
Where as a generator with a solid shaft and fixed bearings on both ends will not tolerate any misalignment or difference in angle at all unless it is driven through a flexible coupler or a belt drive.

 

[Guyfang]

There used to be a turbine gen set for Patriot ADA. Was a 150 KW gen set. Main gen had a bearing. Sometimes we needed 3-4 hours, or more, to get it aligned right. We had to use a run out dial indicator. Very time consuming, and never 100% correct. Our gauge to see if it was correct? A quarter standing on end, on the gen set. If it stayed upright, good to go. If it fell over, then you had to start from scratch.

 

[rickf]

A quarter standing on end, the best tools are sometimes the simplest. How in the world did you set frequency on a turbine set? And I am sure it was a very discreet set to run. And I am sure it was also VERY fuel efficient.