MEP-002 pump problem

[Ray70]

Here's a link to the thread I was thinking about. It explains the purpose of that pin as far as holding the governor flyball housing from rotating.
If the cover rotates, it won't push out properly as RPM's rise and therefore will not press down on the Governor linkage properly.

Mep-002a and Mep-003a catastrophic damage and how to prevent it.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Regarding the fix outlined in the video contained in Post # 41 directly above /\. Wondering if using something like a shoulder screw might work? Something similar to this: MTD 738-04216A MTD 738-04216A Shoulder Screw (mowpart.com) or a similar custom machined threaded part?

It might be better than having threads exposed all the way into yoke area. Perhaps a shoulder screw where the only threaded portion goes through the cover, after tapping the boss hole, and threaded through to outside where it also gets a lock nutted? Still need to use a Loctite type thread sealant as previously mentioned to seal threaded hole when penetrating all the way through cover to exterior.

The other option would be to remove the roll pin & just tap the interior boss (no penetration to exterior of cover) & Loctite it securely in place. But...would vibration & hot oil exposure potentially work the threaded portion loose over time?

 

[2Pbfeet]

Regarding the fix outlined in the video. Wondering if using something like a shoulder screw might work? Something similar to this: MTD 738-04216A MTD 738-04216A Shoulder Screw (mowpart.com) or a similar custom machined threaded part?

It might be better than having threads exposed all the way into yoke area. Perhaps a shoulder screw where the only threaded portion goes through the cover, after tapping the boss hole, and threaded through to outside where it also gets a lock nutted? Still need to use a Loctite type thread sealant as previously mentioned to seal threaded hole when penetrating all the way through cover to exterior.

The other option would be to remove the roll pin & just tap the interior boss (no penetration to exterior of cover) & Loctite it securely in place. But...would vibration & hot oil exposure potentially work the threaded portion loose over time?

You also can get headless shoulder screws;

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Or there are also externally threaded dowel pins, aka a threaded on one end stud;

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

I'd vote for the latter, with an external nut, but I don't know about size, required thread length...

Regardless, given the location and the use of this pin, I would definitely use a high strength, high temperature oil compatible thread sealant, whether or not it penetrates the case.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Ray70]

The more I think about this issue, the more I think there's an issue internal to the governor assembly.
To increase engine speed, the throttle cable pulls on the lever ( #15) which increase tension on the spring ( #11 )
The more spring tension, the harder it is for the governor flyweights to push the governor linkage arm ( #10 ) down to decrease fuel flow thereby resulting in the governor maintaining at a higher RPM, the more the cable is pulled out.
In your case, the cable is fully pushed in, putting minimal tension on the spring, so the governor should have no problem pushing down on the linkage and overcoming the spring tension to keep the engine at a low RPM.
At startup there is no force applied by the governor so the spring pulls the governor linkage and throttle lever all the way open to the full throttle position.
As soon as the motor starts, your governor is making some attempt to close the throttle down, but it doesn't seem to be trying very hard and you are able to manually push it down to lower engine speed.
Also, that bouncing around that is going on with the linkage is completely abnormal. Unless the engine RPM is fluctuating wildly and rapidly, the governor arm and linkage should move slowly and steady with no violent bouncing and no sudden movements.
Normally if you were to try lifting the governor arm ( #10 ) upward at the tip, the governor will fight you very hard and immediately push back at you.
I'm not sure if you can even test that because the machine goes to full RPM so quickly.
You can try it and see what happens, maybe it will point us in the right direction.
Maybe try manually lowering the RPM, hold it steady for a bit, then rev it up quickly by lifting the linkage and see if the governor tries to fight back at all.

 

[Offgrid12]

That a good video explaining what that pin does in the governor. I wonder if my pin fell out and is just rolling around in there waiting to get caught in the gears. I like the idea of using those pins mentioned above, if that turns out to be the problem.
Your are correct that the engine starts at full throttle, and then the governor does bring the throttle down. But after that, the governor seems to not do anything to control the speed.
Now it does not always start revving so quickly like in the video I took, sometimes it will it will stay around 60hz for several minutes, but eventually it will always speed up.
I can easily manipulate the RPM's by moving the throttle arm with my finger.. Maybe I can get a video of that before I take it apart to look at the governor.

 

[2Pbfeet]

That a good video explaining what that pin does in the governor. I wonder if my pin fell out and is just rolling around in there waiting to get caught in the gears. I like the idea of using those pins mentioned above, if that turns out to be the problem.
Your are correct that the engine starts at full throttle, and then the governor does bring the throttle down. But after that, the governor seems to not do anything to control the speed.
Now it does not always start revving so quickly like in the video I took, sometimes it will it will stay around 60hz for several minutes, but eventually it will always speed up.
I can easily manipulate the RPM's by moving the throttle arm with my finger.. Maybe I can get a video of that before I take it apart to look at the governor.

I haven't met a well functioning diesel governor that I I could push around with a finger. Normally the centrifugal force in the governor is substantial to be able to adjust the fuel. I do agree with @Ray70 that the governor vibration in your video makes it look like governor is either stuck, or broken.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Offgrid12]

Hi guys, I was about take apart the generator to inspect the governor. I thought I would shoot one more quick video before I did. In this video I am moving the throttle arm on the pump with my finger.
This is what originally made me think my injector pump was not working properly. The video starts out with the generator running at roughly 60hertz. Now when I lower the speed with my finger there is no push back by the govenor to raise speed. However, when I raise the speed with my finger, the govenor does push back on finger to lower speed.

So you can see that when I raise or lower the RPM's with my finger, the governor does bring the the throttle arm back to where it should be.... But, the RPM's do not come back. Can you see what I mean how the throttle position of the arm doesn't seem to regulate the RPM's correctly?

Mep002 moving throttle

youtube.com

 

[Ray70]

Very informative video.
It seems like now the throttle isn't bouncing all over the place like before, but for some reason the throttle is very slow to react.
The other issue I see is that the Governor arm is not attempting to increase fuel flow when you push the lever down.
Please do another test, same video angle. This time press the linkage all the way down and hold it there until the engine dies. same as what the solenoid would do when you shut the machine off.
Let's see how the governor arm reacts as the RPM's get extremely low and the engine shuts off.
The Governor should pull itself all the way up, attempting to give you full throttle.

 

[Offgrid12]

Here is one more video.. in this one I move the throttle up and down a few times, and then hold it down to turn it off.
When I raised the throttle, it did push back at my finger to lower the RPMs.
When I shut it down, you can see in the video right before it quit, it tried to raise the throttle somewhat.
The throttle is very slow to react for some reason.

Mep002 shutdown

youtube.com

 

[2Pbfeet]

I know nothing about this generator in particular, but from experience with other diesels, that looks like the governor is not fully functional either due to a broken spring on the control or stuck internally due gunk.

That control arm vibrates a lot; the centrifugal force from the governor should be really pressing on it.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Ray70]

Agreed on all facets... Its back to vibrating excessively ( not due to excessive RPM ).... the governor seems very slow to react and the engine also seems a little slow to respond to changes in throttle position as well.
The other thing to note is that I assume you still have the throttle lever pushed all the way in?
Do you know if pulling the throttle lever out has any effect on RPM or not?
I'll to start up an 002 this weekend and see how quickly they normally react to manipulating the throttle like that.

 

[Offgrid12]

I agree with you guys as well, I will probably pull the gear cover and see if I can see anything wrong in there with the gov..
Yes, in these videos that throttle is all the way pushed in. When I started it cold (started up good at 31 degrees outside), I had the throttle knob pushed in. At this point the RPMs were low (lower than the meter would read). I then turned the knob to get 61hz, and it stayed on 61 for a few minuets. But eventually it races, and pushing the throttle wont slow it down.
I would be interested to see if your 002 throttle reacts the same way whenever you run it.. Thanks!

 

[Ray70]

I started up an 002 tonight and did the same thing as in your video.
My governor is much, much faster to react when I both increase or decrease the throttle and the reaction is far more forceful than what I see in your video.
If I rev it up a little, it takes less than 1/2 a second for the governor arm to fight back at me.
If I lower the throttle down I get the same result, the governor tries to lift up on the linkage and if I hold the throttle down longer the governor quickly tries much harder to increase RPM.
It seems like your governor doesn't even start to react until the engine is almost ready to stall.
And if you raise your throttle, it seems like the governor doesn't really care at all and doesn't try to lower the RPM's much, if at all.

 

[Offgrid12]

Having trouble getting the flywheel/blower to pop off. Went at it for a little bit yesterday. First attempt with 2 grade 8 - 5/16”x4” bolts in the flywheel. Tightened and hammered and heated, but eventually the puller pulled the threads out of the flywheel.
I drill and tapped for 3/8” bolts. They are holding well, but that son of gun is not budging. I have put quite a bit of heat to it, and hit the large bolt on the puller many times. Tightened etc..
I took the center flywheel bolt off along with the fat washer that holds the flywheel down, and then put just the bolt back in the crankshaft. That is what I am tightening and hitting against. Any suggestion?
Merry Christmas!

 

[Ray70]

Jeeze, you're doing it right, but you seem to have a real stubborn one! I've never needed to add any heat and do it a similar way.
Only difference is I made a small block of 1/2" tool steel with a 1/2" fine thread hole in the center and 2 holes for the grade 8 bolts, but otherwise same concept as your steering wheel puller, just way shorter bolts.
It's a tapered shaft if I recall, so all of a sudden it's gonna pop and come right off.
My only suggestion is to put some grease on your puller threads, probably won't help remove the blower wheel, but more to prevent galling the threads on the puller if you overtighten it repeatedly.
Otherwise, you're doing it right, whacking the center bolt while under pressure... etc.
You could also try tightening with an impact, but it sounds like you may already at risk of stripping out your new 3/8" threads.

 

[2Pbfeet]

I agree with @Ray70. You seem to be doing the right things. Have you tried any PBblaster or candle wax or other penetrating oil?

FWIW: I try to add the heat to the outer component when trying to pull a gear or fan off of a shaft. I don't know that it makes a big difference, it just seems to me that the outer piece was the part that needed to expand, like doing interference fit on shafts or bearings.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Chainbreaker]

OK, so I've never had to pull a Blower Wheel "knock on wood" but I wonder if somehow using a cold treatment (something like "CRC Freeze Spray") on the crankshaft end & heat on the blower wheel as you are currently doing might produce enough immediate contraction/expansion to allow Blower Wheel to break free?

Or, get up very early when genset has cold soaked overnight outdoors and apply heat while it's still quite cold to take advantage of a very cold engine.

Fingers crossed that you get it to pop off!

Edit: In reviewing your photo above, it looks like there is snow on ground while you were attempting removal, so I assume engine was probably already in that state of being cold. So, I guess scratch that idea.

 

[Offgrid12]

It is definitely a stubborn one. I'll try again using some of the advice from you guys. Thanks!

 

[Ray70]

Do you happen to have an air hammer? I would also try hitting the puller bolt ( while tightened ) and / or the blower wheel hub with an air hammer and a blunt chisel.
I've found that vibration can help loosen frozen parts better than brute force sometimes.

 

[Offgrid12]

Got it! I did try an air hammer. May have helped free it. I finally decided to tighten down the puller until either the puller broke or the flywheel broke free. I ended up getting it super super tight, and then a couple of hits on the main bolt and it came off.

I got the gear case cover off. Everything looks ok with the governor at first glance. The governor pin looks to be in good shape. I guess the only thing else to look at would be the fly ball assembly? From what I read problems with it are very rare.