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MEP-004A, No output

KLChurch

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Now that we are getting to the point of getting electricity out of this sucker I need a part.
At the output L1, L2, L3, L0 there is a Great big nut and a wedge missing to hook up the lines.
Only one is missing. Been checking if it was vibrating loose due to shipping and so far I have found it.
If I knew the size of the thread and pitch I can get one cheap. Also It would be good to post it.
So if anyone knows it please post it. If not I will post it as soon as go to a nut and bolt store here in Conroe.
Kris
 

robertsears1

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I bet a split bolt electrical connector of the proper size should work. Go to Lowes or HD and buy some that look about the right size, you can always return the unused ones.

Robert
 

peapvp

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Insert:

9505-01-049-0144 TERMINAL CLIP: FT VWIRE (0.050 INCH DIAMETER)


Nut


5310-01-017-3876

[h=4]Technical Data | NSN 5310-01-017-3876[/h][HR][/HR]
CharacteristicSpecifications
THREAD SERIESUNC
NOMINAL THREAD SIZE0.500 INCHES
THREAD QUANTITY PER INCH13
THREAD CLASS2B
THREAD DIRECTIONRIGHT-HAND
MATERIALCOPPER ALLOY OVERALL
HARDNESS RATINGNOT RATED
NUT STYLEA12 HEXAGON
NUT HEIGHT0.312 INCHES NOMINAL
WIDTH ACROSS FLATS0.741 INCHES MINIMUM AND 0.752 INCHES MAXIMUM
BEARING SURFACE TYPECHAMFERED
LOCKING FEATUREPREVAILING TORQUE ALL METAL DESIGN
TEMP RATINGNOT RATED










Now that we are getting to the point of getting electricity out of this sucker I need a part.
At the output L1, L2, L3, L0 there is a Great big nut and a wedge missing to hook up the lines.
Only one is missing. Been checking if it was vibrating loose due to shipping and so far I have found it.
If I knew the size of the thread and pitch I can get one cheap. Also It would be good to post it.
So if anyone knows it please post it. If not I will post it as soon as go to a nut and bolt store here in Conroe.
Kris
 

Guyfang

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Depends on how you are going to use the set. 3 Phase, or 1 Phase? If in 1 phase hookup, you have one terminal not needed. Also, look carefully in the bottom of the set, under and around the load terminal board. Often you can find such odd things hidden there.
 

KLChurch

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I checked the Od of the thread and it is 1 inch Dia.
So I guess it is not metric. Ill have to count the number of threads in one inch to see if it is NF or NC.

Just checked the pitch and it is puzzling. 14 threads per inch

So the thread spec should be 1-14 (???)
I looked at the machinery's handbook and standard 1 inch dia. threads are
8 threads per inch for National Coarse (NC)
12 threads per inch for national fine (NF)
20 threads per inch for Extra fine (NEF)
Looks like at this point the thread is special not to standard

Just checked the internet and it shows 1-14 as a standard.
My book is from the sixties so I guess it became a standard after that.
Kris
 
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peapvp

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Ok folks, this may be of interest to any owner of a 004A/005A and potentially a 006A/007A as well

I got Kris's A11 unit here to our shop yesterday.

The first initial test / trouble shooting were done this morning at 09:00 Hours sharp.

The results are as follows:

1. Kris wiring of the new replacement / substitute T2 with inline 2AG Fuse is good ( He did a good job soldering the burnt 18ga Airframe Wires to Fork Terminals )

2. The 6 Diodes mounted on a Heat sink on the A11 Chasis checked out good.

3. The 4 Filter Capacitors on the Filter Unit E2 are suspicious ( 0.01uF Capacistance checks OK, but NO ESR)

4. C2, the large Capacitor mounted to the A11 Chasis is toast

5. The initial Check of the original VR Board checked out OK, but needs further testing after C2 has been replaced

The root cause of T2 burning up:

Transformer usually never burn up unless their internal wire lacquer coating breaks down from time / heat / humidity.

In this case here specific to A11 it is C2 which dries out over time. C2 has a 20uF / 400V rating and when tested with a Capacitance / ESR tester the value starts out at a very low capacitance and then increases rapidly way above 40uF as the test frequency applied increases (should stay the same)

As Higher the Capacitance with frequency gets, as more the Capacitor becomes a short - This is when an AC Signal is applied - it checks out OK with DC (no leaking, no short)

However, C2 is connected to X1 and X3 on T2 and can get up to 124VAC when T2 has 208VAC applied on H1 and H2

This High AC Voltage is then applied to the two SCR's (with Heat Sink) on the VR Board - they supply the VR Board with operating power and start switching this entire circuit

When C2 starts to fail, this short is seen by the secondary side of T2 X1 and X3 and because T2 has no fuse on the primary side in the original design, starts to overheat T2, eventually roasting T2 to well done.

This is a gradual failure and can first be noticed by increased Output Voltage Fluctuation (Your Voltmeter's Needle starts to bounce more and more on your Front panel).

So, rather then suspecting a bad Voltage Regulator Board when this starts, replacing C2 first will, to 98%, fix the problem and prevent overheating of T2

The problem here is the aging of the components looking at the time when these units where originally built.

C2 is actually so bad, that it winded up overloading my ESR Tester as the frequency applied during testing increased - my ESR tester is now toast too, just like T2

But Kris had offered me a BIG Steak Dinner when I come to Huston before it blew anyway! So, I will not dwell on it.



IMG_3106.jpgIMG_3108.jpgIMG_3109.jpgIMG_3110.jpgIMG_3111.jpg
 

Guyfang

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I checked the Od of the thread and it is 1 inch Dia.
So I guess it is not metric. Ill have to count the number of threads in one inch to see if it is NF or NC.

Just checked the pitch and it is puzzling. 14 threads per inch

So the thread spec should be 1-14 (???)
I looked at the machinery's handbook and standard 1 inch dia. threads are
8 threads per inch for National Coarse (NC)
12 threads per inch for national fine (NF)
20 threads per inch for Extra fine (NEF)
Looks like at this point the thread is special not to standard

Just checked the internet and it shows 1-14 as a standard.
My book is from the sixties so I guess it became a standard after that.
Kris

P.G.& E. CORP. Was a supplier of this nut to the Gov. This was their part number:TLF-1213-B-JAM This was another part number for the nut: 72-2061-2. Sadly, in the 20 years in the army, having ordered this nut about a million times, I never once received it. It was simply never stocked.

So we ordered the entire stud:5940-01-009-4763 This is now an inactive NSN. The replacement NSN is:5940-00-958-1214. This terminal is still in production, and is used by several different gen sets in the military. PENN-UNION CORP, and DOSSERT CORP both supplied the military with this terminal. Plug in that NSN in flee bay and you will find at least 3 possibility's.
 

peapvp

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Here is the info for C2:

NSN 5910-00-603-9041

Original Manu Part#:

SCRG112 CORNELL-DUBILIER ELECTRONICS

The SCR Series are Capacitors for Silicone Controlled Rectifier Applications as in this A11 design

The G was replaced by CD to N and an R added to the end after value/rating

SCRN227R-F

Mouser has those in stock at $ 108.99 in stock

This is the slightly larger 600V version - the 400V Version (Original) SCRN216R-F is NO STOCK - 100pcs minimum

Datatsheet:

View attachment SCR.pdf
 

peapvp

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One more thing about Capacitors and their temperature ratings and hours of life:

We will use C2 for this example:

40,000 hours life at full rated voltage and temperature

Operating Temperature Range–40 ºC to +80 ºC

Sounds like eternity to most folks, but:

The shelf life is equal to the operating life

So, lets say our C2 was built (sealed) in 1986 by CD and is now 33 years old
That is:

33 years x 365 days = 12,405 Days

12,405 Days x 24 Hours = 289,080 Hours

289,080 Hours / 40,000 Hours = 7.227

The life expectancy increases with lower temperatures (storage or operation)

With those type of capacitors, if the unit is stored say like in a Depot in Ohio which has average temperatures in a unheated non ac conditioned warehouse from -20C to + 50C every year. This gives you a live extension multiplier of roughly 3.5

40,000 Hours x 3.5 = 140,000 Hours

So our C2 should have been replaced in the year:

289,080 Hours - 140,000 Hours = 149,080 Hours ago

or

149,080 Hours / 24 Hours = 6,211.66 Days ago

or

6,211.66 Days / 365 Days = 17 years ago which would have been in 2002, but wasn't.....
 
Last edited:

peapvp

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No Kris,

40,000 x 3.5 = 140,000 / 24 = 5833 / 365 = 16 years

All the electronic parts which contain Capacitors should be replaced after 16 years - A11, Governor Control etc.

Consumer grade today is 3 to 5 years max


So the gens are only good for 4.5 years?
(40000/24)/365=4.5
Kris
 

KLChurch

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That's sounds like the people who spec out the window gaskets in the sky scrapers in Houston. They were only guaranteed for 5 years for 150 mile per hour. So when the hurricane hit four by eight sheets of glass were flying all over downtown.
Kris
 

peapvp

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For the MEP Owner who is on a budget, this Capacitor would work as substitute for C2:

Price: $ 10.52/ea at Zoro

It uses the newer film technology and will last around 10 years at normal Generator use.


Dayton #2MDZ2 Specifications



  • Zoro #: G2015623
  • Mfr #: 2MDZ2
Overall Height: 3-1/2"Case Material: Aluminum
Cover Material: SteelStandards: UL (E364533)
Capacitor Shape: OvalOverall Depth: 1-3/4"
Capacitor Voltage: 440VACTemp. Range: -40 Degrees To 85 Degrees C
Microfarad Rating: 20Overall Width: 2"
Item: Motor Run CapacitorCase Height: 2-15/16"
Motor Capacitor Type: Motor Run CapacitorTerminal Type: 1/4" Male Quick-Connect
Hz: 60/50Country of Origin (subject to change): China

https://www.zoro.com/dayton-run-capacitor-20-mfd-440v-oval-2mdz2/i/G2015623/#specifications
 
Last edited:

Guyfang

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Having said all that, its also possible that parts can last 50 years, or longer. You just never know. I once fixed a radio that was made from German WW2 electronic parts. 99.999% or the parts worked fine, even some of the tubes. You just never know.
 

peapvp

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That's true for old american made equipment too. I bought an Ampex 350 reel to reel a few years ago on ebay, which was built in 1953/54 (early serial number) and even though it had been stored in a dry barn in Arkansas, it actually still worked at first power up and after a good cleaning and lubricating job, including the Record and Playback Amp...

The raise to the bottom started sometime in the mid 60's.....

Having said all that, its also possible that parts can last 50 years, or longer. You just never know. I once fixed a radio that was made from German WW2 electronic parts. 99.999% or the parts worked fine, even some of the tubes. You just never know.
 

KLChurch

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The special relay box with the new A5 r3 and r8 resistors is installed in the gen
Peter ordered parts for the A11 and should be finishing soon.
Kris
 

KLChurch

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Peter will post his diagnoses of A11 on this site. I believe his bottom line is that great big condenser (C2) failure caused the large transformer to become toast.
The VR was and is OK

Kris
 
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