MEP-803a IEC Receptacle - Stupid or GTG?

[f2504x4]

Howdy-

Disclaimer on this post, and all future posts:
1. I know- consult a licensed, qualified, experienced electrician. I will, trust me- but I'm one of these people that like to try to understand something as well, and hope you'll have patience.
2. Apologies for using terminology wrong, or ignorantly. I'll correct as I go/learn.
3. I don't want to kill myself, anybody else, or burn down my house no matter how much I want the insurance money.

So having picked up a MEP-803a, I'm looking into not only hooking it up to my house (120/240), but basically doing anything I want to do with it from running 3 phase Bridgeport/lathe/machine shop equipment, to 120v only audio equipment for an outdoor event in the middle of a field. Possible noteworthy- this is not something I'd rent out- it's all for my own personal use.

The biggest, immediate question I have to kick all this off is - can I use a Pin & Sleeve style IEC receptacle that is 100AMP 4P 5W (Hubbel HBL5100R5W) in the cavity port leading to the output lugs for easy hookup for all mentioned applications or can I only use this receptacle for 3 phase?
- The receptacle appears to mirror L1, L2, L3, N, and G poles matching the lugs.
- The receptacle is rated for 100a, and I know the spec on the genny says 104a @ 120, so am I already half-a...ing things and that's too much potential amps fo certain pins in a different configuration?
- Will the receptacle fit in the cavity/use same bolt pattern?
- Is it legal, safe, or just plain stupid to do what I want to do with this receptacle (and of course corresponding adapter extension cords w/ plugs) for 120/240, 3phase, etc. interchangeably?

Lay terms - I'd simply like to put a plug on the genny, not worry about hooking up the bare wires to the lugs, set the generator on what output I want for the job at hand, and pull out the proper adapter extension cord and be good to go. I'm one of those fanatical types who believe in doing stuff right, overdoing it, and being extra safe. Which in turn probably means I'll be spending too much money on expensive wire compensating for voltage drop & length, dedicated commercial plugs, and my wife asking me what the heck I'm thinking...

I've google-fu'ed my butt off but can't find an answer from a qualified person I trust yet.. I know there are certified electricians on here, as well as MEP experts, so figured I'd throw it out there for somebody who may be both.

Thanks of course to all of you who have wrote countless hours of reading material I've already been through on all the things I need to know and need to do.

Tony

 

[Scoobyshep]

There is an important thing you are not considering here, proper grounding. When using this to power your house AND the neutral wire is not switched (99% of applications) you must remove the neutral to ground bond in the generator. In a out in the field application the ground and neutral must be bonded.

Can you use 1 or 2 legs? absolutely. its 120to ground or 208 leg to leg, be aware though loading 2 legs and leaving the third empty can eventually damage the head.

104 amps on a 100 amp pin and sleeve? youll be fine. There is some wiggle room in the electrical codes.

Bolting it up, The manufacturer should have the dimensions in a spec sheet.

Adapters are nice but you need to be very cautious using them as you could potentially get the wring voltages in the wrong spot.

 

[f2504x4]

Hey Scooby-

Thanks for you notes on grounding - you're info helps confirm my current understanding:

Out in the field- ground rod required, bonded (strap in place)
Attached to house, not bonded, assuming 4 wire hookup, transfer switch is 4 pole and only (one) bonded location is at service panel.

Loading only 2 of the 3 legs- I'm not sure in my scenario where I'd be doing that? Could you please elaborate so I'm not being dumb? For out in the field, my understanding is I would be 120v only (L3 - L0) - for house, knowing I'd try to keep the load balanced between both phases. 3 phase I know virtually nothing about- so last thing I want to do is damage the generator or anything else... Which, as you mentioned, ensuring I don't screw up the converter/extension cord on leads would be critical.

Spec sheet didn't show how far that stupid cap flips up in the open position if it'll be out of the way or not. If the receptacle is safe for my setup, I'll find out and put a pic up to share.

Thanks,

Tony

There is an important thing you are not considering here, proper grounding. When using this to power your house AND the neutral wire is not switched (99% of applications) you must remove the neutral to ground bond in the generator. In a out in the field application the ground and neutral must be bonded.

Can you use 1 or 2 legs? absolutely. its 120to ground or 208 leg to leg, be aware though loading 2 legs and leaving the third empty can eventually damage the head.

104 amps on a 100 amp pin and sleeve? youll be fine. There is some wiggle room in the electrical codes.

Bolting it up, The manufacturer should have the dimensions in a spec sheet.

Adapters are nice but you need to be very cautious using them as you could potentially get the wring voltages in the wrong spot.

 

[Scoobyshep]

Hey Scooby-

Thanks for you notes on grounding - you're info helps confirm my current understanding:

Out in the field- ground rod required, bonded (strap in place)
Attached to house, not bonded, assuming 4 wire hookup, transfer switch is 4 pole and only (one) bonded location is at service panel.

Loading only 2 of the 3 legs- I'm not sure in my scenario where I'd be doing that? Could you please elaborate so I'm not being dumb? - As you mentioned, ensuring I don't screw up the converter/extension cord on leads would be critical.

Spec sheet didn't show how far that stupid cap flips up in the open position if it'll be out of the way or not. If the receptacle is safe for my setup, I'll find out and put a pic up to share.

Thanks,

Tony

Transfer switch would need to be 2 pole switching both hots and the ground and neutral are always connected.

If you are setup for 3 phase and you apply a load to L1 and L2 and nothing to L3 (in this example l1 l2 l3 are interchangeable) 1 winding will not heat up from a load . the thermal difference between 2 windings working hard and the third sitting cold is bad for the head. in your case if you have the set configured for 3 phase 120/ 208 and run your house is where that would come into play.

on the other end of your pin and sleeve IE connecting to the house you could feasibly do what you were originally thinking.

 

[f2504x4]

Gotcha- thanks for the explanation.

Transfer switch would need to be 2 pole switching both hots and the ground and neutral are always connected.

If you are setup for 3 phase and you apply a load to L1 and L2 and nothing to L3 (in this example l1 l2 l3 are interchangeable) 1 winding will not heat up from a load . the thermal difference between 2 windings working hard and the third sitting cold is bad for the head. in your case if you have the set configured for 3 phase 120/ 208 and run your house is where that would come into play.

on the other end of your pin and sleeve IE connecting to the house you could feasibly do what you were originally thinking.

 

[Scoobyshep]

Gotcha- thanks for the explanation.

Any time if you need further specific hookup help feel free to ping me.

 

[uniquify]

The biggest, immediate question I have to kick all this off is - can I use a Pin & Sleeve style IEC receptacle that is 100AMP 4P 5W (Hubbel HBL5100R5W) in the cavity port leading to the output lugs for easy hookup for all mentioned applications or can I only use this receptacle for 3 phase?

The HBL5100R5W link shows it's rated for 347/600 volts, which seems like overkill.

I think you might take a look at the HBL5100R9W, which appears to be dual rated for 100 or 125 amps at 120/208V or 144/250V.

The website has a sales drawing that says the receptacle is 5-1/2" square and the bolt pattern is 4-7/8" square. It needs a round hole a hair under 4" diameter. Looks like both options are the same physical size, but different colors and different pin clocking.

No idea what they cost...

 

[Scoobyshep]

You really want one rated for the voltage youll be using, this is because the pinout changes to prevent plugging into the wrong socket (though the odds of someone plugging a 600volt load into your genset is practically 0) its best to do it the right way. If you cant find a 5 pin 240 volt then go with a 5 pin 208.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[f2504x4]

Uniquify-

Thanks for the spec sheet- appreciate it- more detailed than the one I found.

I checked out the dual rated one you listed- price is considerably more- the original one I was looking at was about $250, that one is around $450. I may have to check out eBay and see if I can get any deals- but what's right is right.

Thanks guys.

Tony

The HBL5100R5W link shows it's rated for 347/600 volts, which seems like overkill.

I think you might take a look at the HBL5100R9W, which appears to be dual rated for 100 or 125 amps at 120/208V or 144/250V.

The website has a sales drawing that says the receptacle is 5-1/2" square and the bolt pattern is 4-7/8" square. It needs a round hole a hair under 4" diameter. Looks like both options are the same physical size, but different colors and different pin clocking.

No idea what they cost...

 

[Coug]

Check ebay for them. Quick search showed new HBL5100R9W in the $200-300 range, and used ones down around $100.

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,
Pin and sleeve connection can always work, BUT
They are each keyed and colored for rating. Making custom connections like how you are wanting can be useful and dangerous.
A 5 wire receptacle for 3 phase with all wires connected would use the corresponding plug. You would then also have a 5 wire plug with the with making use of 4 wires to operate in 120/240, this is dangerous because standards dictate color of plug showing what it is meant for. The same thing would then be setup for straight 120v. This is with only you touching the equipment. As soon as someone else come into play, it's dangerous.
All in, you are talking about $600+ in pin & sleeve connections.

Having cables ready for use, with ends tinned ready for the lugs are not to bad. No matter how you connect to the generator, you will still need to make your final connection to the equipment.

 

[f2504x4]

Daybreak, and all-

Listening to the professionals and understanding your reasoning, my electrician recommended to me to use Cam-Lok connectors instead. I have a machinist buddy who can make anything, and I'm sure he could make a plate for the generator with the 5 ports on it for a quick Cam-Lok panel connection.

course, knowing my limits, I'm not touching the transfer panel installation to the house, but my electrician stated for temporary power for generators, they are handy to use and idiot color coded, which kind of makes sense to me as well. I'm not so stubborn to not listen to alternative options as what I want to do is the safest/right way and if it turns out that there is no reasonable way than just using the lugs directly then that's the answer... Or, should I already find a new electrician for suggesting the use of these? Not sure of any cost savings this way either, but the plus side I didn't think about until this morning was I could also use those for my welder, winch, etc when not in use by the generator, so there are economies of scale...

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Tony

 

[Scoobyshep]

Camloks are useable, BUT are inherently hazardous. its very easy to cross a connection, miss a connection, connect out of sequence, and there is no finger protection. they have their uses but in my professional opinion use the pin and sleeve.

 

[f2504x4]

That's kind of the heart of the issue on why I'm going down this path for finding an easy & safe way to hook it up- The God's honest truth is my hands don't work for crap, and work even worse when they get cold and nearly lose the ability to use my thumbs. I try to make everything easy for me to do as a result and 5 years ago throwing wires on the lugs and tightening them down wouldn't have been a 2nd thought, but anymore I just try to streamline things... I'm still leaning pin & sleeve as well, with big laminated wire tied label at each end saying this is not a standard configuration and do not use for any other purpose...

Having cables ready for use, with ends tinned ready for the lugs are not to bad. No matter how you connect to the generator, you will still need to make your final connection to the equipment.

 

[Coug]

If your hands are that much of an issue, then you might just do the 5 pin connector out of the generator then make an adapter to go to your different things. Daybreak already said it, but I'll say it again because I forgot to read every post before writing this one and only remembered his after I wrote this.


The HBL5100R9W is rated for 100 amps. The MEP-803A puts out a maximum of maybe 125 amps single phase (15kw) overloaded to the absolute max, which is extremely unlikely to do. At 12KW (rated output at 1.0 power factor) output you'd be 100 amps. Running 120/240 would be 50 amps per leg, and three phase less (33 amps per leg). It doesn't matter if you are only using 4 of the conductors instead of 5 when in 120/240 mode, as the connector is beefy enough to handle the output amperage (you just have to make sure the wiring is rated to match the connector from generator to connector, after the connector you match it to the plug or load you are powering)

You would just have to make adapters to go from the 5 pin 3 phase connector to whatever it is you plan to run. You'd also have to make sure that the output switch behind the panel is in the correct setting for that adapter (you'd have to make sure that switch is correct no matter what you use for wiring though)

This route would cost more up front, but save some time and effort later on, especially if you plan to switch to different loads frequently (or in your case cold weather)


Then add some very clear labels on each of the adapters, and add some type of note or decal that is very visible reminding the operator to check the output switch before connecting to and powering the intended load (or turning on the generator) . Accidentally powering a 120/240 load from 120/208 won't likely cause any issues, but trying to power a three phase load from single phase might damage the equipment that is plugged in

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,
The mini cam loks are good to 150 amps. They would probably the safest and best mothed of connection to the generator without using the lugs. Your friend could make up a panel with the appropriate panel mount receptacles for each color code. The wiring would be straight forward for what you want. I use a set of pig tails on a load bank for that purpose.

15 Series 150 Amp Cam Connectors

cams-direct.com

I also believe the larger cam-loks are the required entry point for all gas stations in the evacuation zone for generator hookup.

 

[Guyfang]

Howdy,
Pin and sleeve connection can always work, BUT
They are each keyed and colored for rating. Making custom connections like how you are wanting can be useful and dangerous.
A 5 wire receptacle for 3 phase with all wires connected would use the corresponding plug. You would then also have a 5 wire plug with the with making use of 4 wires to operate in 120/240, this is dangerous because standards dictate color of plug showing what it is meant for. The same thing would then be setup for straight 120v. This is with only you touching the equipment. As soon as someone else come into play, it's dangerous.
All in, you are talking about $600+ in pin & sleeve connections.

Having cables ready for use, with ends tinned ready for the lugs are not to bad. No matter how you connect to the generator, you will still need to make your final connection to the equipment.

I love Pin and sleeve. Thats all the Safety freaks here in Germany can use. The Cam-loks, I have never seen here. They look simple. They look easy. But I do not like the safety of them. Too easy to stick something like my grandsons finger into them. And you have to pay attention to how you hook them up. Pin and sleeve? Just stick it into the receptacle. Its not possible to connect a larger amp plug, into a smaller amp receptacle. THAT I LIKE!

The prices over here are way lower for pin and sleeve. Yours must be gold plated!!

 

[Scoobyshep]

I love Pin and sleeve. Thats all the Safety freaks here in Germany can use. The Cam-loks, I have never seen here. They look simple. They look easy. But I do not like the safety of them. Too easy to stick something like my grandsons finger into them. And you have to pay attention to how you hook them up. Pin and sleeve? Just stick it into the receptacle. Its not possible to connect a larger amp plug, into a smaller amp receptacle. THAT I LIKE!

The prices over here are way lower for pin and sleeve. Yours must be gold plated!!

They are simple they are easy, they are not finger safe, they are not first grounding (electrical plugs have a slightly longer ground pin to ensure it is the first to make and last to break. they are not positive placement ( ground to ground neutral to neutral etc) , they are not current rejecting. They are great for their versatility but the versatility comes with a great amount of responsibility.

Is it something id use? absolutely ( my generator feed was camloks at one point) . Would I leave it open and available for my mother to operate? No way in hell.

 

[f2504x4]

Somehow I knew it... My first real post, some very knowledgeable, helpful people on here who all have great points- learning a lot as I go, and no matter which option I choose, I'm probably going to tick somebody off, but I sincerely appreciate all your input and advice.

Measuring the Hubbell 100amp pin and sleeve receptacle, it just won't squeeze in output wire cavity no matter what I do. I thought about the camlok's some more, but on a whim I looked at the 60amp receptacles and they are overall slightly smaller, and fit. That of course would mean changes to my options of full generator output on all 3 modes only allowing me to safely use 2 of the 3 settings.

Mini-Cam loks are pretty cool and totally idiot proof by matching up the colors while supporting all generator settings...

I'll sleep on it, order some stuff and surprise with the answer and some photos in a few days I suppose.

So my questions now are the what-if's....

What if I hooked up to the house or the on-trailer service panel and the generator was accidentally left in 120/208v 3PH mode? (What Scooby said earlier about loading only 2 of 3 legs and gen damage...)
What if the generator was in 120/240v 1PH mode when plugged into 3PH equipment?
What if bonding strap was not in place in the field, and ground rod not hooked up to generator through trailer lug?

Thanks all,

Tony

 

[Coug]

1) 208 3 phase will just put 120 to each leg same as 120/240, but will only see 208V instead of 220/240. Most equipment is somewhat forgiving, you're still within 10% of 230 (240V can actually be anywhere between 220-240). Shouldn't cause any issues but your 240 equipment might try drawing a little more amperage.

2) not good for 3 phase stuff to only be powered on 2 legs. Better equipment will sense that something isn't right and just not work at all, crappy equipment you do risk doing some damage to it.

3)Bonding strap and ground rod are there to protect you and other people primarily, very unlikely it will cause any issues with equipment. I got shocked more than a few times when everything wasn't grounded properly on 15KW MEP804s and 33KW drash units. Unlikely to kill you or cause damage, but the risk or shocks/electrocution is there, especially in wet weather.

That drash unit I mentioned, me and the contractor took turns getting shocked in steady rain while troubleshooting a locked compressor in the ECU. You have to screw up pretty good to actually die from voltage as low as 240, but it's not impossible.