MEP002 running for only 45 seconds at a time???

[AndrewOH]

My 002 I can only get running for about 30-45 seconds at a clip. Sometimes it fires right off, but normally it seems to start in a idle state (~1200 RPMs) even with WOT for about 3 very long seconds before she comes to life. I did get it running last night for 6 minutes straight. Every time it wanted to die, I goosed the throttle a little bit and it came back to life (right around the 30 second mark). When it first starts up in the low RPM state or right when it dies, there is a lot of white smoke which leads me to believe it is a fuel delivery issue. When it runs, it makes perfect power and is steady on the Hz up to the end.

I've gone through and replaced all the filters, fresh oil and fuel, new batteries and replaced a broken fuel pump. I've let the new pump run for about 5 minutes and verified that it doesn't slow down.
I am using a separate fuel tank so I've verified that the return fuel from the pump never stops either. The check valve is operational and I've cracked open one of the fuel lines at the injectors and have seen fuel being squirted out. When I did that, the other cylinder fired up so I know there is fuel in that one too (could not get that line off without fear of breaking it off). All the linkage at the injector pump and governor seem ok and I've lubricated it to make sure there is no binding.

Everything that I've read leads me to believe it is an injector pump issue. I don't suspect the governor is the problem as I am doing this without load. Anyone have any suggestions besides replacing the pump to get it working? I'm hoping that maybe from years of sitting, it just needs to be cleaned out. Hopefully I didn't miss anything in the search but I've poured over it for hours already.

Thanks!

 

[1800 Diesel]

My 002 I can only get running for about 30-45 seconds at a clip. Sometimes it fires right off, but normally it seems to start in a idle state (~1200 RPMs) even with WOT for about 3 very long seconds before she comes to life. I did get it running last night for 6 minutes straight. Every time it wanted to die, I goosed the throttle a little bit and it came back to life (right around the 30 second mark). When it first starts up in the low RPM state or right when it dies, there is a lot of white smoke which leads me to believe it is a fuel delivery issue. When it runs, it makes perfect power and is steady on the Hz up to the end.

I've gone through and replaced all the filters, fresh oil and fuel, new batteries and replaced a broken fuel pump. I've let the new pump run for about 5 minutes and verified that it doesn't slow down.
I am using a separate fuel tank so I've verified that the return fuel from the pump never stops either. The check valve is operational and I've cracked open one of the fuel lines at the injectors and have seen fuel being squirted out. When I did that, the other cylinder fired up so I know there is fuel in that one too (could not get that line off without fear of breaking it off). All the linkage at the injector pump and governor seem ok and I've lubricated it to make sure there is no binding.

Everything that I've read leads me to believe it is an injector pump issue. I don't suspect the governor is the problem as I am doing this without load. Anyone have any suggestions besides replacing the pump to get it working? I'm hoping that maybe from years of sitting, it just needs to be cleaned out. Hopefully I didn't miss anything in the search but I've poured over it for hours already.

Thanks!

A couple possibilities come to mind:

1. Have you checked the screens on the fuel pumps for trash?

2. What condition are all the fuel hoses in? Maybe a pin hole in a hose between the tank & the pump pulling in some air???

3. Have you removed inspected/cleaned the tank insides? (I see you're using an aux tank but trash from base tank could have traveled into hoses & fuel strainer or pump screens.)

4. When you changed the filters, it is assumed you cleaned the housings, right?

5. Along with the filter changing did you thoroughly clean out the fuel strainer too?

If you eliminate fuel flow & delivery issues then it may be the IP...possibly a removal and cleaning will help. Storeman & others on this site may offer some assist--I haven't had to get into the IP on these units so have no hands-on experience...

 

[AndrewOH]

Thanks for the quick reply.
I've cleaned out the screen. It is a possibility that there could be air in the hoses but they seem to be in decent shape. I've bypassed the original tank and am just using a fuel can in the meantime. I found the filter housings to be clean when I replaced the filter and I've taken a real clost look at the fuel on the return line looks clean as can be. I replaced the strainer with a Goldenrod waterblock filter. The one thing that throws me for a loop is that she runs beautifully for 45 seconds almost every time just with a little hard start and then just dies. Not sure if that is a common IP failure or not. I may try to get the other injector's fuel line off so I could just run the IP without the engine. Thanks.

 

[1800 Diesel]

Thanks for the quick reply.
I've cleaned out the screen. It is a possibility that there could be air in the hoses but they seem to be in decent shape. I've bypassed the original tank and am just using a fuel can in the meantime. I found the filter housings to be clean when I replaced the filter and I've taken a real clost look at the fuel on the return line looks clean as can be. I replaced the strainer with a Goldenrod waterblock filter. The one thing that throws me for a loop is that she runs beautifully for 45 seconds almost every time just with a little hard start and then just dies. Not sure if that is a common IP failure or not. I may try to get the other injector's fuel line off so I could just run the IP without the engine. Thanks.

I've seen diesel IPs cease to provide high pressure after 15-20 minutes of run time due to the temperature increase opening up clearances inside the pump, but in your case, the 45 second window is not enough time for this to be the problem. Still seems like either air getting in or some sort of trash getting to the pumps and stopping good delivery.

Did you happen to mix in some concentrated injector cleaner in with your first batch of diesel? I also add O/B motor oil in about a 4% solution to add lubricity over what the fuel additives provide.

On the injector line, apply some PB Blaster and allow it to soak in for a few hours...

 

[Jimc]

this is funny but have you checked the oil level. i know you said you replaced but be sure to double check the level. mine here was only a quart low and had the same symptoms. it would run long enough to pump oil up into the engine then the oil level came down just enough to trip the shutoff. it would sit for a min then all the oil drains back down into the pan showing only 1 qt low. added a qt and she runs beautiful.

 

[Speddmon]

When you start the generator, hold up on the fuel shutoff solenoid. If it remains running, then you have an electrical issue someplace. If it still shuts off then you probably have the fuel issue. Get back to us after you have run this test and we'll go from there. There are still a lot of unknowns at this point, but you'll cut them in 1/2 by doing as I suggested.

 

[Triple Jim]

I also add O/B motor oil in about a 4% solution to add lubricity over what the fuel additives provide.

That's 25:1... I don't use that much in my outboard motors. I had the idea that an ounce per gallon, which is 128:1 was plenty. Some sources recommend 200:1. No offense, just asking.

 

[PeterD]

... When it first starts up in the low RPM state or right when it dies, there is a lot of white smoke which leads me to believe it is a fuel delivery issue....

Not fuel delivery issue in my book, if:

1. does that white smoke smell like raw diesel? Or motor oil (possibly burned?)
2. Does it run without missing? (how smooth is the running?)

I think you have a cylinder that is not firing. The 'rules' for smoke on a diesel are:

1. White smoke: cylinder(s) not firing allowing raw fuel to escape into the exhaust system. Commonly caused by glow plugs (on that type of engine), very cold temperatures, or low compression.
2. Black smoke: Excessive fuel for the air supplied. Commonly caused by the injection pump spitting in too much fuel or a restricted air intake (dirty air filter.)
3. Blue smoke: Engine oil escaping into the combustion chambers past the rings or valves.

The smell of the smoke is very important. #1 the smoke smells like diesel because that is what it is. #2 smells, but not of raw diesel, but burned diesel. #3 smells like an old, worn out car or lawn mower-a sweet oil burning smell.

IMHO, you have a cylinder that is not firing on start-up.

 

[swbradley1]

Not fuel delivery issue in my book, if:

1. does that white smoke smell like raw diesel? Or motor oil (possibly burned?)
2. Does it run without missing? (how smooth is the running?)

I think you have a cylinder that is not firing. The 'rules' for smoke on a diesel are:

1. White smoke: cylinder(s) not firing allowing raw fuel to escape into the exhaust system. Commonly caused by glow plugs (on that type of engine), very cold temperatures, or low compression.
2. Black smoke: Excessive fuel for the air supplied. Commonly caused by the injection pump spitting in too much fuel or a restricted air intake (dirty air filter.)
3. Blue smoke: Engine oil escaping into the combustion chambers past the rings or valves.

The smell of the smoke is very important. #1 the smoke smells like diesel because that is what it is. #2 smells, but not of raw diesel, but burned diesel. #3 smells like an old, worn out car or lawn mower-a sweet oil burning smell.

IMHO, you have a cylinder that is not firing on start-up.

Addendum to your rules for a diesel - white smoke can also signify coolant getting into the combustion chamber, i.e. head gasket failure.

 

[PeterD]

Addendum to your rules for a diesel - white smoke can also signify coolant getting into the combustion chamber, i.e. head gasket failure.

Yes, that's true! Hence the value of the 'sniff test' which will help identify what is causing the white smoke. Coolant (anti-freeze) smells very different from diesel! Generally if there is a bad head gasket (or cracked head/block) you will see other symptoms such as a rapidly pressurized cooling system.

 

[1800 Diesel]

That's 25:1... I don't use that much in my outboard motors. I had the idea that an ounce per gallon, which is 128:1 was plenty. Some sources recommend 200:1. No offense, just asking.

In all my diesel equipment (tractors, generators, shrimp boats), I've been using a 10% mix of used motor oil for about 20 years now. (A few years back, this value could be found in CAT marine diesel operator manuals.) I'm certain with today's pubs you won't find such a recommendation due to the various agencies and gummit' rulemaking, etc....

With the newer electronic control diesels (some with internal optical sensors) I don't use as much for concern that the sensors will not be able to read. As far as the MEP units, I use a higher concentrate for the first run-in which includes O/B motor oil, algaecide & fuel additive--sort of a "shock treatment" to help clean out the system.

As to comparison to O/B motors there is none. The mix requirements for a 2-cycle engine have no relationship to an old diesel that was designed to run on high-sulfur diesel fuel. For the MEPs I'm building the 4% amount is for the 1st light-off; after things are up and running I shift to a 1-2% mix. In my diesel truck (2001 7.3) I add 1 gallon to the 100-gal aux tank or about 1 1/2 pints when I fill up the factory tank.

Everyone has there own ideas about what is good, bad or too little/too much. My theory is the added oil or other additives are cheap insurance against an injection pump or injector failure and associated costs of repair or replacement and the cost of downtime. The low sulfur diesel we're forced to use (which now is either highway or off-road diesel) is not good for the older pumps & injectors so in my shop the oil gets added in fair amounts. Rule-of-thumb--as long as you don't see a bunch of blue smoke during running, the oil added is not excessive.

No offense to anyone with different ideas or opinions. Thanks for weighing in.

 

[swbradley1]

Yes, that's true! Hence the value of the 'sniff test' which will help identify what is causing the white smoke. Coolant (anti-freeze) smells very different from diesel! Generally if there is a bad head gasket (or cracked head/block) you will see other symptoms such as a rapidly pressurized cooling system.

Not to mention the smoke screen a coolant/head problem gives you.

 

[1800 Diesel]

Addendum to your rules for a diesel - white smoke can also signify coolant getting into the combustion chamber, i.e. head gasket failure.

Definitely agree with you on a coolant leak causing "white smoke" or steam...but since this is an air-cooled engine, I would say Andrew should follow Peter's post for this case. And just so we don't confuse any newbies...

 

[1800 Diesel]

this is funny but have you checked the oil level. i know you said you replaced but be sure to double check the level. mine here was only a quart low and had the same symptoms. it would run long enough to pump oil up into the engine then the oil level came down just enough to trip the shutoff. it would sit for a min then all the oil drains back down into the pan showing only 1 qt low. added a qt and she runs beautiful.

Jim--now that's a great piece of advice--always check the simple things first! That would be nice if this is what he found--end of problem!

 

[swbradley1]

Definitely agree with you on a coolant leak causing "white smoke" or steam...but since this is an air-cooled engine, I would say Andrew should follow Peter's post for this case. And just so we don't confuse any newbies...

Yes, but when you don't say it is specific to air-cooled...

I would listen to Speddmon and eliminate 50% of what it could be.

 

[1800 Diesel]

Yes, but when you don't say it is specific to air-cooled...

I would listen to Speddmon and eliminate 50% of what it could be.

Yep--agree on that--he knows his stuff about these MEPs!

 

[Triple Jim]

In all my diesel equipment (tractors, generators, shrimp boats), I've been using a 10% mix of used motor oil for about 20 years now. ...

As to comparison to O/B motors there is none. The mix requirements for a 2-cycle engine have no relationship to an old diesel that was designed to run on high-sulfur diesel fuel. For the MEPs I'm building the 4% amount is for the 1st light-off; after things are up and running I shift to a 1-2% mix. In my diesel truck (2001 7.3) I add 1 gallon to the 100-gal aux tank or about 1 1/2 pints when I fill up the factory tank.

OK, thanks for the clarification. I certainly understand that lubrication of 2-stroke engines is not the same as adding oil to diesel fuel to lubricate the injector pump, but you mentioned that you added outboard motor oil at a ratio of 25:1 to your diesels, so I was was interested in more details. I like the idea of mixing waste motor oil to diesel fuel, and looked into cleaning it up with a centrifuge to do that. The problem was the cost and space requirements were not worth it to me for the small amount of diesel fuel I use here for monthly generator testing and occasional outages.

 

[1800 Diesel]

OK, thanks for the clarification. I certainly understand that lubrication of 2-stroke engines is not the same as adding oil to diesel fuel to lubricate the injector pump, but you mentioned that you added outboard motor oil at a ratio of 25:1 to your diesels, so I was was interested in more details. I like the idea of mixing waste motor oil to diesel fuel, and looked into cleaning it up with a centrifuge to do that. The problem was the cost and space requirements were not worth it to me for the small amount of diesel fuel I use here for monthly generator testing and occasional outages.

Jim--I'm working (on paper for now) on a plan to set up an elevated waste oil tank that will gravity feed the oil through a hot water heater and then the heated oil will be sent through a Racor fuel filter. Once the oil is filtered I'll pump it back up to a "clean oil" tank which will be set up slightly higher than my bulk diesel tank. Whenever I call out for a fuel tank fill, (once the tank is about half-empty), I'll add the appropriate amount of the "clean oil" to the bulk tank prior to the fill-up. Sounds real complicated but it's not too bad and when you consider used oil at the price of diesel fuel, it doesn't take many gallons of "free fuel" to pay for the set-up & labor. Whenever I get the system built & installed, I'll post some photos. Unfortunately, I've got many more projects ahead of this one. For now, I'm using small amounts in my truck tank and have installed a fuel filter on my aux tank pump to filter the mixed diesel & oil prior to use in equipment. Does the same thing but only in small amounts....

Since we have 2 diesel trucks (one actually a Suburban), several diesel tractors and generator load testing on a regular basis, we use at least 100 galls of diesel per week, hence my interest in utilizing the waste oil...you could do the same thing on a smaller basis--the same setup I have for my truck aux tank. Just mix the oil in your bulk tank and then filter the mix prior to using it in the gensets....

 

[gimpyrobb]

bla bla, late post.

 

[AndrewOH]

Ok, I ended up making a more permanent new tank for it, checked all the connections, flushed the fuel and added some Diesel Kleen, and re-bled it. Oil was good but it is on the front of a M103 trailer and the low oil cutoff is rotated higher than usual when attached to my truck so I jacked it up to make sure it was fully level. Took about 5 attempts but engine finally fired off. At first wouldn't get about 38hz and was vibrating very badly. If I had to wager a guess, I would suspect it is operating on one cylinder. The engine would sound like it is screaming but it wasn't even at 60 hz yet. After a few seconds, it would take full throttle to run at 60hz. Oil pressure is good. After a few more seconds it sounds like the other cylinder kicks off and the smoke goes away and she smoothes up but I have to immediately push in the throttle as the RPM's start to surge. As it starts to die, I life up on the Engine Stop Solenoid (Pg 3-25 of the operator tech manual-Is this the correct switch you guys wanted me to lift up on?) and she would keep running but she would rev up substantially. As she starts to die, the whitish smoke (could have a darker tint to it as well) comes but goes away when she comes back to life. The smoke does seem to smell burned. At the end, lifting up on the solenoid, the engine kept running at about 1200 RPM. I took my finger away and she kept chugging at that RPM as I went to kill it. Seems like fuel delivery to me. What do you guys think?

Mental note to myself NEVER to do again, I originally zip tied that switch for some stupid reason (so I could look at the control center and adjust the throttle) and when she fired off, I couldn't get her to shutdown, not even with the circuit breaker (makes sense).