My 803 seems to dislike the cold

[PDCCD]

https://youtu.be/MleiTYFX_zs


Gotta call in the Gods of Diesel. My beloved 803a is experiencing some difficulty I can't identify. I won it over a month ago and have put 20+ happy hours load testing it, running a heater in the garage, and various maintenance runs. Not a lick of trouble. It's been unusually cold here in the NW so I thought I'd give it a cold weather trial. The results have been abismal. It clunks and bangs like a Pig (the 7.62 kind) when I try to start it conventionally. Oddly, it turns over as smoothly as normal using the dead crank switch. I took a video (sorry for poor quality) so you could at least hear what's going on. The second part is me reaching in and activating the cold crank switch. I tried the preheat for 30+ seconds multiple times.

Any help will be appreciated.



Pete

 

[rhurey]

Just from looking at the video, it looks like the fuel cut off solenoid is the source of the banging. It's like the start switch isn't making good contact.

 

[Triple Jim]

I noticed that an electric fuel pump sounded like it was sucking air.

 

[rhurey]

My first thought was batteries. But guessing.

 

[PDCCD]

Interesting. Such a racket. Sounds like it's going to break something. I did replace the fuel gauge recently, maybe I hit a wire. As for the batteries I checked those, was reading just under 24 volts after multiple pre-heats and attempts to start. Also it turns over fine on the dead crank switch. Good ear on the sucking air sound. I also heard that air/compression sound a couple of times. Hard to turn her over and trouble shoot. I'll check wire connections in the morning and try to diagnose air sound. It's been cold, but only 20-30 degrees at worse so this was an unhappy surprise. Thanks for the thoughts fellas.

 

[rosco]

Your comments tend to suggest that you don't know the history of the batteries, which is understandable, if it came with them. You can check them hooked up. A fully charged battery is 12.66V. They are not worth much at less then 12.30 & 12 V = dead ("just under 24 volts"). Start with them fully charged, & go from there. Check your glow plugs. That machine shouldn't even care if it were Zero.

 

[Guyfang]

Indeed, this has the classic sound of bad glow plugs, and maybe low batteries. The clacking in the first few seconds of starting are low battery sounds. As commented, the clattering sound comes from the fuel cut off solenoid engaging and releasing, due to low batteries.

The second time you turned it over, almost sounded like you used S-10, the dead crank switch, because it sounded like absolutely no fuel was being injected to the chamber.

How do the glow plug wires look? Sometimes the glow plug relay gets stuck/shorted in the on position, and then burns the plugs up, and overheats the wires. They look like a forest fire passed through.

A longer film would be nice. I thought I heard something else, but as I wear two hearing aids, and one has a battery that went south for the winter about an hour ago, its better to listen again.

The pumps are sucking air as already commented. You may need to crack a injector fuel line to let out air.

 

[RickM39]

Since the unit cranks well when the dead crank is used I suspect the battery and starter are OK.

It sounds like the start signal to the starter is cutting out as soon as the starter is engaged and getting it back when it unloads.

I would say that either the control ground (or power) is being lost when the starter draws current.

Saw that recently when the control ground was mistakenly hooked to the starter motor input stud (the one between the actual electric motor and the solenoid).

The control circuit was grounded through the starter windings but obviously as soon as the solenoid activated the "ground" became hot and the signal was lost.

Soon as the signal was lost, the ground was restored and here comes the signal again. Repeat that over and over very fast and you get the sound that yours is making.

 

[JRM]

I just fired mine up this AM at 15F without glow plug, mine spun over much faster than yours and fired right up. your fuel pump does sound like its got a air bubble as ppreviously noted

 

[RickM39]

My 802a starts real well in the cold as well, never used the glow plugs.

Perhaps if the batteries are low the start relay drops out when the starter engages, then comes back in when the load goes away.

 

[DorkFish83]

I experienced this exact same problem yesterday with one of the 802's I'm working on. I accidentally left the control panel lights on overnight and it did the same banging of the fuel solenoid when I tried to crank it with the S1. Cranked over just fine with the dead crank switch though. After charging the batteries for a little bit, it was back to normal.

Definitely check the condition of your batteries and have them load tested.

-Tony

 

[rustystud]

Definitely batteries and more then likely bad glow-plugs.

 

[Guyfang]

The reason it turns over better with S-10 is because S-10 ONLY turns the starter over. All the other functions needed to start and run the set are blocked out.

 

[MtnSnow]

Batteries since you stated "just under 24v" which is not even close to being charged. You should see 25.2 to 25.8 volts resting (no load after being off of a charger for 8 to 12 hours) for completely charged/fresh batteries.

 

[PDCCD]

You guys rock. Tonight I finally had time to go out and try again. Brought the wife to turn it over while I recorded so I could provide you all with a better video. Well, when I told her to hit the switch, we got nothing but the dead battery "click". OK, so i put the my rescue pack on and had her hit the ignition again and it started immediately and purred like a kitten! A big ugly kitten anyway lol. Exactly as Dorco experienced. So, as Rosco observed, the batteries did come with the unit. They appeared to be in good condition and even barely turned the 803a over when using the dead crank (S-10) during my preview of the unit. I bought one of those fancy 24volt Norco chargers (G7200) just for the occasion and charged both the batteries separately. I also used the extra "Repair" mode on each battery. All seemed well. I've used it multiple times since with no problems but admittedly I don't have a load tester. I'll now take them down to Napa and have them tested. I never trust those fancy testers they use, i've had a couple instances of what I believe were fraudulent negative "reports". Anyway, I digress. I now understand thanks to Guyfang why the S-10 worked fine, but under additional load, NO GO.

I'll also investigate both the glow plug situation and the try to figure out where that sucking sound was coming from. Is there a simple way to verify glow plug condition?
Might I also ask, when I get the battery issue sorted out, in the future, how is it best to charge a 24volt system using my fancy charger when you have two 12volt batteries in series? I'll take another video too when she's all back together so Dr. Guyfang and the Gang can notify me of anything else I should be concerned with. I probably should do a proper introduction of my 803a anyway. I'm very proud of her. My wife feigns jealousy ever since I named her Lucy and have been spending so much time with her lol. I think over the past few months i've read every generator thread here, and i feel like I know some of you as i've read so many of your contributions.

Again, Thanks All! I'm consistently impressed with the generosity you all share here helping people like me.

 

[DorkFish83]

I just use two old 12v chargers for mine, one on each battery.

If you have a 24v charger then you would hook the positive to the positive terminal on the starter side battery, and the negative to the negative terminal on the oil filter side battery. That way you're charging them in series. Or you could get a plug that fits the slave terminal and charge it that way.

-Tony

 

[rhurey]

I've got a G7200 hooked to the slave port. I just leave it plugged in all the time.

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,
Batteries will fail under extreme cold and extreme heat. Anyway, you have a good smart charger which can do a bunch of things for you.

24v charging thru slave port

And since it is a smart charger, you can just leave it connected too.

 

[Guyfang]

You guys rock. Tonight I finally had time to go out and try again. Brought the wife to turn it over while I recorded so I could provide you all with a better video. Well, when I told her to hit the switch, we got nothing but the dead battery "click". OK, so i put the my rescue pack on and had her hit the ignition again and it started immediately and purred like a kitten! A big ugly kitten anyway lol. Exactly as Dorco experienced. So, as Rosco observed, the batteries did come with the unit. They appeared to be in good condition and even barely turned the 803a over when using the dead crank (S-10) during my preview of the unit. I bought one of those fancy 24volt Norco chargers (G7200) just for the occasion and charged both the batteries separately. I also used the extra "Repair" mode on each battery. All seemed well. I've used it multiple times since with no problems but admittedly I don't have a load tester. I'll now take them down to Napa and have them tested. I never trust those fancy testers they use, i've had a couple instances of what I believe were fraudulent negative "reports". Anyway, I digress. I now understand thanks to Guyfang why the S-10 worked fine, but under additional load, NO GO.

I'll also investigate both the glow plug situation and the try to figure out where that sucking sound was coming from. Is there a simple way to verify glow plug condition?
Might I also ask, when I get the battery issue sorted out, in the future, how is it best to charge a 24volt system using my fancy charger when you have two 12volt batteries in series? I'll take another video too when she's all back together so Dr. Guyfang and the Gang can notify me of anything else I should be concerned with. I probably should do a proper introduction of my 803a anyway. I'm very proud of her. My wife feigns jealousy ever since I named her Lucy and have been spending so much time with her lol. I think over the past few months i've read every generator thread here, and i feel like I know some of you as i've read so many of your contributions.

Again, Thanks All! I'm consistently impressed with the generosity you all share here helping people like me.

d. Set multimeter for ohms and test heater, (glow) plugs. Normal reading is 4 to 5 ohms. Zero resistance indicates ashorted heater and a high reading indicates an open heater. You have to remove them, to test them.

When you have a problem, use the troubleshooting diagram. And don't forget, when it's an engine problem, use the engine TM's. Sounds like a no brainer, but sometimes people forget that there are two sets of manuals. A young soldier was screaming at me one day because I would not help him until he got the TM and showed me where the procedure for testing engine vacuum was. He kept waving a TM in my face and screaming, "I have looked until my eyes are bleeding, no such thing in the f-ing book!!!" So, when he took a breath, I handed him the engine TM and told him to try that. I laughed till I cried.

 

[PDCCD]

Thanks Daybreak. I'll order the slave port interface asap. I've re-charged the batteries and plan to get them to NAPA soon for load testing. Not sure when i'll have the time to dig into glow plugs, but thanks for the starting point and TM reminder Guyfang. Im still in the middle of a major electrical project on the house so I can wire this beast into a 400amp ATS i've bought for her. It never ends lol. I'll keep you all posted.

Pete