Need advice on adding air shutdown to m35a2

[pitpawten]

Here is what I think OP is looking for: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?p=1582522

 

[rustystud]

Yes, he just wanted to safely shut-down a runaway engine.

 

[Katavic918]

Here is what I think OP is looking for: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?p=1582522

That pretty much it. Except I will be cutting the metal u-pipe and installing a 3" brass ball valve. I'll rig up a pull cable to go inside of the cab.

 

[Katavic918]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm just waiting on the valve to arrive. I'll take some pictures and post later.

 

[Recovry4x4]

I can assure you that if that rubber hose is in good condition, I won't get sucked in. I've been around more than a couple of runaways that were shut down by removing the intake cap and flipping it around to block the hole.

 

[Floridianson]

I've got an exhaust brake on the Redtruck and like it a lot....

5 bucks says you also put playing cards on the forks of your bike.
I would never have done something like that. I had the battery powered motor that made the sounds of a real motor. Varoooom

 

[m16ty]

View attachment 612498View attachment 612499

I should have prefaced that with "all modern electronic controlled injection" . You must be able to open the exhaust valves to prevent any problems like I said earlier. The compressed air must go somewhere. Also you must deal with the Turbo pressure.

You've got me there, I never have fooled with a Jake on a electronically controlled engine.

I never have seen a set of Jakes that had any control over the turbo either as mentioned in the link you posted. Didn't know they did that.

The ones I've dealt with only consisted of a solenoid assembly that went between the valve cover and the head or rocker box, dash switches, and a switch on the accelerator shaft and clutch. Guess they've come a long way on the modern diesels.

Anyway, back to the regular scheduled programming.

 

[Katavic918]

I can assure you that if that rubber hose is in good condition, I won't get sucked in. I've been around more than a couple of runaways that were shut down by removing the intake cap and flipping it around to block the hole.

I was just out in the driveway thinking about this post. I suppose that would work in an emergency. And you've seen it done?

 

[m16ty]

I was just out in the driveway thinking about this post. I suppose that would work in an emergency. And you've seen it done?

I haven't actually seen it done but there's no reason why it won't work. Anything to shut the air off to the engine will do.

About the only way to stop a runaway is to shut off the air or put it in gear and try to choke it and hope the driveline holds up.

 

[rustystud]

I haven't actually seen it done but there's no reason why it won't work. Anything to shut the air off to the engine will do.

About the only way to stop a runaway is to shut off the air or put it in gear and try to choke it and hope the driveline holds up.

Or remove it's fuel supply. That's why I installed a shut-off valve to the injection pump.

 

[rustystud]

View attachment Scan0098.pdf

You've got me there, I never have fooled with a Jake on a electronically controlled engine.

I never have seen a set of Jakes that had any control over the turbo either as mentioned in the link you posted. Didn't know they did that.

The ones I've dealt with only consisted of a solenoid assembly that went between the valve cover and the head or rocker box, dash switches, and a switch on the accelerator shaft and clutch. Guess they've come a long way on the modern diesels.

Anyway, back to the regular scheduled programming.

Here's page 10 from the Jake brake installation manual for the Cummins M11 engine. It shows how to connect to the engines ECM. This signal then allows the module to shut-down all injection while the Jake Brake is in use.

 

[Katavic918]

Or remove it's fuel supply. That's why I installed a shut-off valve to the injection pump.

I saw that. Good idea in the case of injector pump problems.

 

[drivebymashing]

What about the turbo seal blowing and sucking oil from oil pan? Thats why i like the deal hanksdeuce made to shut down air.

 

[pitpawten]

What about the turbo seal blowing and sucking oil from oil pan? Thats why i like the deal hanksdeuce made to shut down air.

Agreed, there are too many ways for "fuel" of some sort to make it into the combustion chamber to reliably and quickly shut them off in a runaway situation (normal injection, via intake [gaseous], turbo seal etc).

If you can quickly shutoff the only source of air (post filter is best), you can figure out where and why the fuel is coming in once safe.


The potential fuel sources are a PM issue, not one to try and troubleshoot while revs are reving (IMO).

 

[rustystud]

What about the turbo seal blowing and sucking oil from oil pan? Thats why i like the deal hanksdeuce made to shut down air.

In all my years in trucks and heavy equipment I only once saw a turbo leak so bad it made the engine run after the fuel was shut-off. Really the turbo must be leaking a lot to provide enough fuel to keep the engine running. Since I would never allow my turbo to get that bad I don't worry about shutting off the air supply. One thing you must know. If you do shut-off the air supply on a high revving engine you can damage the intake manifold gaskets. That is a lot of suction that engine is providing at say 2600 rpm.

 

[rustystud]

Agreed, there are too many ways for "fuel" of some sort to make it into the combustion chamber to reliably and quickly shut them off in a runaway situation (normal injection, via intake [gaseous], turbo seal etc).

If you can quickly shutoff the only source of air (post filter is best), you can figure out where and why the fuel is coming in once safe.


The potential fuel sources are a PM issue, not one to try and troubleshoot while revs are reving (IMO).

There are "only two" sources of fuel to keep a diesel running. The injection pump and engine oil. Not a multitude. Shut-off the fuel and in 99.9999999 percent of the time you kill the engine. The only way engine oil can enter the combustion chamber is if you have a really bad problem which just doesn't happen overnight. Take care of your truck and you will never have an engine run-away on engine oil. The reason manufactures put air-shutoffs on trucks was because they don't know if the people who bought the truck will maintain it properly, so they idiot proof it as best they can.

 

[pitpawten]

There are "only two" sources of fuel to keep a diesel running. The injection pump and engine oil. Not a multitude. Shut-off the fuel and in 99.9999999 percent of the time you kill the engine. The only way engine oil can enter the combustion chamber is if you have a really bad problem which just doesn't happen overnight. Take care of your truck and you will never have an engine run-away on engine oil. The reason manufactures put air-shutoffs on trucks was because they don't know if the people who bought the truck will maintain it properly, so they idiot proof it as best they can.

You forgot fuel (vapor) entering through the air intake; Environmentaly such as gas leak or from something onboard like too much ether (permeated filter) or malfunctioning manifold heater etc

Agreed that if you can shut down the "fuel" you can quickly stop the run away 99 percent percent of the time.

However there are multiple potential sources of that fuel (IP, vapor) and multiple potential sources for the engine oil (from pan directly, turbo) but only a single source of air (intake).

I know which one I want a quick disconnect on if I'm already running away.

 

[drivebymashing]

Good to know about turbo seal. I feel better about driving my truck without some sort of shutoff. I worry less about my turbo now.

 

[rustystud]

You forgot fuel (vapor) entering through the air intake; Environmentaly such as gas leak or from something onboard like too much ether (permeated filter) or malfunctioning manifold heater etc

Agreed that if you can shut down the "fuel" you can quickly stop the run away 99 percent percent of the time.

However there are multiple potential sources of that fuel (IP, vapor) and multiple potential sources for the engine oil (from pan directly, turbo) but only a single source of air (intake).

I know which one I want a quick disconnect on if I'm already running away.

This is not a gas engine, there is no fuel vapor entering the engine. Diesel fuel must be injected into the combustion chamber at the correct time to cause ignition. There is no other way. If you try and introduce fuel from the intake manifold it will denote before the pistons reach top dead center. Try and start your truck by squirting gasoline into the air filter and see what happens ! That is also why you don't want to use much ether. It starts to denote, but as a aid to the diesel fuel injected into the combustion chamber it will help to fire off an engine having trouble starting. As far as the manifold heater malfunctioning if you shut-off the fuel it will stop also. Again there is only two sources of fuel, diesel and engine oil. Cut off the diesel and you are pretty much assured there will be no engine running. As far as getting oil directly from the oil pan, the only engine able to do that is a two stroke like the Detroit Diesel. Our engine is not a two stroke. I have a question for you "pitpawtn". Have you ever seen a diesel engine "run away" ? In my 38 years in this field I have only witnessed this happen four times. All where caused by a faulty injection pump, and the one time a turbo went bad it didn't "run away" but just refused to stop. It was more like a fast idle. You seem stuck on this notion that there is a multitude of ways to keep a diesel engine running. As one who has fought to get a diesel to fire off I assure you there isn't ! Even if your theory of "ether" could happen, the ether can would run out in about 30 seconds.
You also seem to think that cutting off the air supply will totally shut-off the engine. Well I know for a fact that a "run away" diesel can suck in the gaskets of the intake and still keep running ! That is why shutting off the air is a "last" resort effort. During one of those "run aways" I was talking about, the mechanic (who was working next to me) could not shut-off the engine. He was in a panic and even tried to stuff his coveralls in the air intake. The engine sucked in the gaskets and keep running. Finally the foreman came running over and cut the fuel line with a knife. Then the engine finally stopped.
If you can tell me from "your" personal experience something different I'll listen, but if this is just "junk you heard" from the internet then I would advise you to stop spreading "old wives tales".
This site is about spreading knowledge not rumor, and so far that is all I'm hearing.

 

[gimpyrobb]

If I had a flux capacitor, and if my deuce went off a cliff, I might hit 88mph and be able to time travel...