NEW TO MEPs-802 GENS

[Guyfang]

Jon,

Welcome to the forum. You could start a "Parts Wanted" thread, and that will help you find the missing parts. You should also start your own thread on your generator. That way your questions and answers do not get mixed up with the other questions and answers. Better visibility and much easier for you to manage your problems.

 

[mciikurzroot]

Sirs: I just purchased a 2012 Fermont MEP-803A, 10kW, 60 Hz, Generator Set,

NATO Tactical Quiet, Skid Mounted on a Super Single Chassis 2 1/2 Ton, 2-Wheel Trailer.

So far it looks like it has a good ONAN 4-Cyl. 24.1 HP Diesel Engine in it that turns over

when using the “Dead Crank Switch” . I have installed 2 new 12V DC, 850 Ah battery’s

in series to get a very good 24Vdc source. I have also done a New Oil and Filter change and filled

up with fresh diesel fuel. At this time my goal is to just RUN the engine for 3 or 4 minutes.

My problem: I noticed that all 6 of the enclosed relays S14, K12, K15, K16, K9 and K20

are all missing along with the “cartridge 30A fuse Item #22 and #23”.

Question: Do I need all of these items just to run the engine only?

The engine will turn over, but not run when using the Item #16 Master Switch on the Control Panel.

I know I do need all of them to run the Generator, but I just want to know the engine is ready to go.

I am open to all suggestions, Thank you Sirs from Jon Hanson . . . San Antonio, Texas.

Jon do you still need the relays, i have a butt load of them all originals and exact replacements. let me know mac/mc in Wimberley just due north of you ..35-or so miles

 

[Jon Hanson]

Thank you Sir, but I had found some PB relays in my box of relays and they were the same part numbers the oil companies use in their pump stations automation upgrades.

 

[Lundy]

This is not quite true. The box synchronizes two like generators. It will not let you parallel the sets. That's two different functions. If you want to know how to use it, its in a TM. Tell me what PP, (Power Plant) and I can direct you to the TM for it.





No, its not supposed to be used for two different sized gen sets.

I have two of the MEP-802 generators and need to parallel them (need additional power when the well pump cycles on). Please direct me to the correct TM.

For automatic synchronizing operation; Has anyone thought about getting the speed control solenoid that is used with LPW generators or even a universal GAC to use with an electronic engine speed controller and Sync controller for multiple generators like a Woodward 9905-003?

 

[DieselAddict]

I have two of the MEP-802 generators and need to parallel them (need additional power when the well pump cycles on). Please direct me to the correct TM.

For automatic synchronizing operation; Has anyone thought about getting the speed control solenoid that is used with LPW generators or even a universal GAC to use with an electronic engine speed controller and Sync controller for multiple generators like a Woodward 9905-003?

Everyone gets fixated on speed control but that is actually the easy part. What makes it hard to parallel 802s is the voltage regulators. You'll need to change the VRs to ones that can do a master-slave setup. The stock VRs will NOT play nicely in a parallel situation.

Woodward does make the equipment for that. The downside is the controller costs more than a pair of 802s with a few more 802s thrown in for spare parts. I know, we upgraded a couple of generators for parallel operation and the cost a cool half mil which of that about $200k was for the controllers.

If you must have parallel operation, these are not the droids you are looking for. Buy yourself a couple of MEP1030s and be ahead of the game in money and frustration.

 

[Light in the Dark]

It does sound like you just need different equipment, than what you have.

 

[cbisson]

I have two of the MEP-802 generators and need to parallel them (need additional power when the well pump cycles on). Please direct me to the correct TM.

For automatic synchronizing operation; Has anyone thought about getting the speed control solenoid that is used with LPW generators or even a universal GAC to use with an electronic engine speed controller and Sync controller for multiple generators like a Woodward 9905-003?

Sell the 2 802s and get 1 803.

 

[FarmingSmallKubota]

Sell the 2 802s and get 1 803.

OR Buy new Ammps 1030,1040 etc units as they are able to parallel.

 

[Guyfang]

Maybe I am looking at this wrong. But fuel consumption of two slightly smaller gen sets, can not possibly be less the fuel consumption of one slightly larger gen set. And, keeping two sets running all the time, in parallel, is double the maint, double the consumables, and still leaves you in the lurch if one set goes belly up. This is not computing to me. Unless you are doing life or death stuff, one 10 KW would be right. Me being me, I would have another as a back up.

 

[Lundy]

Maybe I am looking at this wrong. But fuel consumption of two slightly smaller gen sets, can not possibly be less the fuel consumption of one slightly larger gen set. And, keeping two sets running all the time, in parallel, is double the maintenance, double the consumables, and still leaves you in the lurch if one set goes belly up. This is not computing to me. Unless you are doing life or death stuff, one 10 KW would be right. Me being me, I would have another as a back up.

Yes, I agree, A back up is a must. The rub is "running all the time". I don't plan on running 2 generators all the time. One 5 KW generator produces more power than I need, EXCEPT when the 5-hp 3-phase well pump kicks on (which is only a few times a day for less than 15 minutes). I plan on having the well pump pressure switch initiate and terminate the automatic start/stop of one generator. Additionally I am concerned that I would have wet stacking issues running a single 10 KW all of the time.

A little back ground: This is for an off-grid resort that has much larger main generators that gobble diesel during our main season (which there is no getting around). However we have a pre and post seasons where it is not feasible to run the big generator. Literally over $10k potential savings in fuel costs alone in one year.

 

[DieselAddict]

Ug… 3 phase. I see your problem. It it were single phase, I’d recommend an inverter/battery setup for that.

Any chance you can use a VFD on the pump to get it into the output range of a single 802? Do you need full pump output?

 

[Guyfang]

The only problem I see with an auto start when the pump kicks in, is that it needs to kick in BEFORE the pump kicks in, and the set needs to auto Parallel to the online set. I am sure it can be done, but do not see it as cheap.

 

[DieselAddict]

Thats why I was asking about doing a VFD and running the pump below nameplate so a single 802 could handle it. I'm assuming in the off season the full flow/pressure of the well may not be needed.

It would be much easier to have to deal ONLY with start/run events and not the whole parallel thing. Especially since the probability of success paralleling a pair of 802s isn't great without a LOT of modifications.

 

[2Pbfeet]

@Lundy Could you separate this into two things? A water generator, and a general purpose generator? i.e. perhaps could a water tank be added so the main pump can run once a day on a timer, enabling the 10kW generator to come up to speed, warm up, and then have the start load dumped on it? Then it could run until the tank is full, shut the pump off, and run a cool down timer and shut the generator down? Or just have the pump control circuit start the 10kW, etc., etc.? It seems easier and cheaper than trying to remotely synchronize two generators to take the load, and having to have pricey master/slave voltage regulators installed, not to mention perhaps more reliable, at least to me.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Chainbreaker]

@Lundy Along the lines of what 2Pbfeet is suggesting...

Down at our shop & horse barn we have a down hole well pump that fills an above ground storage tank in conjunction with an above ground jet pump that pumps a pressure tank to 60 psi.

Before we had a well problem, the well pump pressurized the pressure tank randomly as required. However, now due to a barn well issue the well pump is on a "pool timer" that is set to only activate a few minutes at different intervals 24/7 to replenish 1500 gallon above ground storage tank as required (long story why this is needed due to a restricted well issue not allowing long duration well pumping).

Well pump timer only activates if the 1500 gal holding tank's low water "on float" drops in the holding tank by a foot or so due to water consumption. It also has a low water "off float" tank float to stop jet pump if holding tank were to run nearly dry. In your situation... assuming you don't have a restricted well & have sufficient water resource you might only have to run your 3-phase well pump off your generator once or twice a day to fill a large holding tank sized to your needs.

In our situation, if well pump timer is on & holding tank float indicates a need for water, it energizes the well pump which is timed via the pool timer until the high-level float #2 cuts it off or pool timer run duration shuts it off. It will repeat this process as well timer & tank water level requires on a 24/7 basis in our case while on utility power.

So, in your case perhaps you could dedicate 1 genset to always run in 3-phase just for the well pump to completely fill a x-gallon above ground storage tank once or more a day depending on your typical daily needs. Much more efficient & better for the genset to run your generator longer intervals to fill a storage tank, than multiple start/stops due to triggering it off your pressure tank switch.

You would need a separate 120 or 220-volt "jet pump" that utilizes the stored well water piped to it from a holding tank & it would only come on when pressure tank PSI drops to a pump-on set point taking that burden off your well pump. In our case, the water line pressure tank's switch is set to come on at 30 psi & the jet pump runs up pressure tank to 60 psi & then shuts off. Given our situation, just the jet pump is available 24/7 to maintain water line pressure since it has ~1500 gallons well water to draw from stored in our above ground holding tank.

Anyway, just some food for thought...

 

[Lundy]

@Lundy Could you separate this into two things? A water generator, and a general purpose generator? i.e. perhaps could a water tank be added so the main pump can run once a day on a timer, enabling the 10kW generator to come up to speed, warm up, and then have the start load dumped on it? Then it could run until the tank is full, shut the pump off, and run a cool down timer and shut the generator down? Or just have the pump control circuit start the 10kW, etc., etc.? It seems easier and cheaper than trying to remotely synchronize two generators to take the load, and having to have pricey master/slave voltage regulators installed, not to mention perhaps more reliable, at least to me.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

Yes, a separate “pump generator “ would be an alternative. But I already have 2qty mep-802 generators. One 5kw should run the pump fine,… it is the initial start up current in-rush that is unpredictable for me. I had purchased the 2qty 802’s after we closed and It will be Late April before I can access the resort due to snow. For now I need to prepare for either scenario.

@Lundy Could you separate this into two things? A water generator, and a general purpose generator? i.e. perhaps could a water tank be added so the main pump can run once a day on a timer, enabling the 10kW generator to come up to speed, warm up, and then have the start load dumped on it? Then it could run until the tank is full, shut the pump off, and run a cool down timer and shut the generator down? Or just have the pump control circuit start the 10kW, etc., etc.? It seems easier and cheaper than trying to remotely synchronize two generators to take the load, and having to have pricey master/slave voltage regulators installed, not to mention perhaps more reliable, at least to me.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

@Lundy Along the lines of what 2Pbfeet is suggesting...

Down at our shop & horse barn we have a down hole well pump that fills an above ground storage tank in conjunction with an above ground jet pump that pumps a pressure tank to 60 psi.

Before we had a well problem, the well pump pressurized the pressure tank randomly as required. However, now due to a barn well issue the well pump is on a "pool timer" that is set to only activate a few minutes at different intervals 24/7 to replenish 1500 gallon above ground storage tank as required (long story why this is needed due to a restricted well issue not allowing long duration well pumping).

Well pump timer only activates if the 1500 gal holding tank's low water "on float" drops in the holding tank by a foot or so due to water consumption. It also has a low water "off float" tank float to stop jet pump if holding tank were to run nearly dry. In your situation... assuming you don't have a restricted well & have sufficient water resource you might only have to run your 3-phase well pump off your generator once or twice a day to fill a large holding tank sized to your needs.

In our situation, if well pump timer is on & holding tank float indicates a need for water, it energizes the well pump which is timed via the pool timer until the high-level float #2 cuts it off or pool timer run duration shuts it off. It will repeat this process as well timer & tank water level requires on a 24/7 basis in our case while on utility power.

So, in your case perhaps you could dedicate 1 genset to always run in 3-phase just for the well pump to completely fill a x-gallon above ground storage tank once or more a day depending on your typical daily needs. Much more efficient & better for the genset to run your generator longer intervals to fill a storage tank, than multiple start/stops due to triggering it off your pressure tank switch.

You would need a separate 120 or 220-volt "jet pump" that utilizes the stored well water piped to it from a holding tank & it would only come on when pressure tank PSI drops to a pump-on set point taking that burden off your well pump. In our case, the water line pressure tank's switch is set to come on at 30 psi & the jet pump runs up pressure tank to 60 psi & then shuts off. Given our situation, just the jet pump is available 24/7 to maintain water line pressure since it has ~1500 gallons well water to draw from stored in our above ground holding tank.

Anyway, just some food for thought...

When you say tank, do you mean an above ground storage tank or pressure tank(s)? There are 3qty pressure tanks currently in the system.

 

[Lundy]

Thats why I was asking about doing a VFD and running the pump below nameplate so a single 802 could handle it. I'm assuming in the off season the full flow/pressure of the well may not be needed.

It would be much easier to have to deal ONLY with start/run events and not the whole parallel thing. Especially since the probability of success paralleling a pair of 802s isn't great without a LOT of modifications.

Ok, then paralleling isn’t practical. Either one 5 kw will need to do it or I will purchase a larger unit and separate the well to a dedicated source.

 

[2Pbfeet]

Ok, then paralleling isn’t practical. Either one 5 kw will need to do it or I will purchase a larger unit and separate the well to a dedicated source.

The third possibility is that you buy a variable frequency drive for the pump so that it soft starts. If you go that route, I would recommend filters in and out of the VFD if your well pump is a submersible pump down the well. If it is on the surface, I would put them at least on the generator side of the VFD. Basically, you want to limit the harmonics from the VFD from "ringing" the generator windings and potentially causing issues.

Good luck!

2Pbfeet