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NH-250 Supercharged??

Jayco36REQS

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Anyone ever try to put a supercharger on the NH-250??


In the gas world, I've put blowers on all kinds of engines, and typically like that kind of lowend power MUCH better than turbos... seems it would suite this application well so long as you didn't go nuts with the boost.

Thoughts??
 

Nonotagain

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A supercharger is a parasitic device, meaning it uses horse power to create boost, while a turbo uses "free" exhaust gas to create boost.

Aquired from another site. http://www.automotivearticles.com/Supercharger_vs_Turbocharger_.shtml

THE CASE FOR SUPERCHARGING
Since a crank driven s/c (s/c = supercharger) is what people are normally talking about when they use the term supercharger, I will no longer say "crank driven" to make the distinction between it and a turbo. Now using a supercharger makes a ton of sense simply because it only has a direct effect in pressurizing the engine on the side we want it to, the induction side. Since pressures will always be higher here than in any other part of the system (except of course during the engine's power stroke, but that's always sealed off from the rest of the system so we can forget about that complexity), it's very easy to make this combination a powerful one. NA engines often use large amounts of valve overlap to get the whole system to work properly at higher RPM, which has obvious drawbacks in that it's possible for the intake system and exhaust systems to interact in a negative way (since they operate at similar pressures). It's sometimes just as easy to get air flowing backwards through the system as it is to go forwards in an NA setup, which is one reason camshaft choice is so important to where in the RPM band best power will be produced. And here is where the beauty of supercharging is; neither valve overlap amounts nor perfect exhaust system designs are completely essential to keep everything flowing in the right direction. No matter how long the exhaust is exposed to the intake system through valve overlap, air should NEVER pass backwards through the system unless the supercharger stops working.

THE EVIL OF SUPERCHARGING
The evil of supercharging is that some of the power we finally get from combusting the air/fuel mixture must go back into powering the supercharger. So here we have designed this whole system that works so well, yet we have to power it with some of our hard earned torque. This is not a good thing, but then again nothing so simple is ever going to come for free. Do superchargers work? Of course they do, which is why many racing engine uses the technology unless the rules prohibit it. The net result is more total power from the system, but a portion of this power must be sapped from our output to make it all work.

THE CASE FOR TURBOCHARGING
This section is easy to write, because it's exactly the same thing as the supercharger portion. We have all of the same advantages, except for one major benefit. That benefit is that turbocharging runs off what is largely wasted energy, so that **** drawback of needing to power the system with some of our hard earned torque is removed. In this way, a turbocharger addresses the one main drawback to using a supercharger, but as you will see in a second the supercharger addresses the one main drawback of turbocharging.

THE EVIL OF TURBOCHARGING
Hopefully you now understand why it makes so much sense to forgo designing engines for NA use and just supercharge the sucker instead, at least when we are talking about how to best make power. And if you have been following what I have said, you will also understand the bad effect turbos have on our little perfect world of pressure variation.
A turbo is an ingenious little design that harnesses the wasted kinetic energy we dump out through the exhaust system to actually force more air into the engine. This is good for the same reasons that supercharging is good, but it has one major drawback: it of course increases the pressure within a portion of the exhaust system. While turbocharging a motor increases the amount of air that can be flowed into it, it has a negative effect on how easily we can flow it back out again. This weakens our positive pressure difference between these two fundamental sides of the engine, and causes both cam timing & exhaust system design to again become extremely important to making good power. This is most certainly not a good thing, but can a turbo overcome this drawback with the other inherent good it possesses? It certainly seems so, because in most current forms of racing where the rules don’t probihit the use of tubos or slap restrictions on their use, the turbo reigns supreme in terms of engine power output.
 

Jayco36REQS

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LOL.. ok thanks for the lesson, but I've been around blowers on gas engines since I was 10 yrs old.. running on pulling tractors, pulling trucks, drag cars, street cars.. we even built a blown lawn mower once out of spare parts just for kicks! lol I've owned blown and turbo cars all my life.. I currently own a 2003 SVT Mustang Cobra dynoed at 540rwhp. It's just been my experience has been for lowend torque, I'll take a blower over a turbo any day!

Like I've said, I'm new to MV and modding these big deisels, but definitely NOT new to hot rodding or forced induction.
 

Jayco36REQS

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And when looking at our specific application... aka.. low RPM power and torque... Nothing beats a blower. So it seems it would be a great fit. Now, I don't know these NH-250 motors weaknesses, hince my question.

I've read a few posts on here about guys puting a turbo on the NH-250 and running 15lbs of boost.... If that is all the boost we need to feed these, that is easy to achieve with many small blowers... even the Paxton or Vortech blowers will pump 15lbs of boost with ease... or go with a whipple or KennBell screw blower and get more efficiency and more boost at lower rotations. Tons of options -vs- the old GMC 6-71, 8-71, 12-71 blowers of the old school days.
 

Cycletek

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I was just thinking about this very thing myself, I was at a Dyno Event that a friend of mine was putting on last Saturday. The people at Vortech were there and I was talking to them about putting one of their large belt driven Superchargers on my NHC and an adjustable waste gate, with a EGT of course. I am looking to build a bit more mid-RPM Torque and I may fab up water to air Inter-cooler too, separate from the Engine cooling system. They were very interested in the possibilities, so we exchanged info and perhaps may be doing a project after the first of the year. I will keep you posted.

:popcorn:
 

Cycletek

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Product Description (# 2G348-010 )Vortech V-24 Supercharger (X-Trim Straight Discharge)
Vortech V-24 X-Trim Supercharger

Performance Specs

Max Speed:Â Â 64000 RPM
Max Boost:Â Â 29 PSI
Max Flow:Â Â 1800 CFM
Max Power:Â Â 1300 HP
Peak Efficiency:Â Â 79%

Performance specs apply to units equipped with heavy duty gearcase.

* Modular extremely robust drive
* 4.21:1 internal step-up ratio
* Unprecedented strength and durability
* Available with clockwise rotation only (straight discharge).

Superchargers exceeding 6 PSI require a Vortech standard bypass valve or a Vortech Maxflow racing bypass valve.

Superchargers exceeding 10 PSI require a Vortech Maxflow Mondo or Maxflow racing bypass valve.

Cog belt drive systems are recommended for all heavy duty superchargers

Warranty Information

No Warranty
No warranty on race/heavy-duty superchargers.

Please Note
Do not include drive pulley

*Note: Product Images May Not Be Vehicle Specific.
 
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Jayco36REQS

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Orlando/FL
Nice specs... Keep me posted on the progress of this project... Turbo's are ok, but I'll take a blower anyday!! Just curious if these NH250's can hold up. Since I'm not planning to do any max hauling or towing with it, the drivetrain should be ok.. it would be nice to amp up the HP and Torque another 100 or so.
 

m16ty

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As I said in the other thread, blowers are for gas engines. A turbo setup for a NHC250 is a bolt on project that can be had fairly cheap. A blower setup is going to require some engineering and fab/machine work. A turbo will provide more than enough boost to destroy the NHC250. I'm just trying to understand why somebody would want to do the engineering and fab/machine work to install a blower when a bolt on turbo setup will perform better.

A 2-stroke Detroit will not run without a blower. It has to have forced intake air for the 2-stroke savaging system to work. That is the only reason a Detroit has a blower. They even add turbos on Detroits when they want to up the HP.
 

Cycletek

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Which ever method you use to move air through a motor, either one will be able to do it. One uses the exhaust power to turn the compressor and the other uses the mechanical power to turn the compressor. I know all about Detroits, I have one in my 40 foot Bus has a 8v71 I built, I added a turbo and a water to air intercooler to it to increase its torque capabilities as well. I have been a mechanic fabricator for nearly 35 years, I was also heavily involved with Top Fuel Nostalgia Drags and built and serviced 6 and 8-71 Superchargers and install Nylatron Strips to increase their efficiency. So making things better has kind of been what I do for most of my life, I would like to increase the torque in my NHC engine and a Supercharger is way simpler and doesn't back up heat into the motor like a turbo. I know about those too, I have had several 4 cylinder motorcycles with single and dual turbos. And besides it appears that the Vortech people found my idea to have some merit and that is why they want to get involved. Besides I love it when someone "tells" me I cannot do something, the Bus people said the same thing to me 30K miles ago...........

:soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox:
 

Jayco36REQS

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WELL SAID Cycletek!!! I too have been into Tractor and truck pulls, drag racing, SCCA racing, go-cart racing for 40+ yrs. I was racing go-carts at 5yrs old, and learning to fabricate on it from them on. My dad has been into truck and tractor pulls forever.. and has anyone ever looked at a modified pulling tractor running 3+ Big Block engines?? Every tractor and truck are one of a kind fabrications! These guys that only want to do a mod if there is a "bolt-on" part crack me up! lol ****, most of the fun of Hot Rodding is the fabrication part!!
 

Nonotagain

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Go ahead and hang another 3 lbs worth of pulleys on the front of the NHC-250. When you break the end of the crank off, you'll have the rememberance of doing it your way.

Cummins got away from the small cam engine design due to the requirement of additional horse power. If all they had to do was to add a super charger, there's a pretty good chance that they looked at it.

The Cummins 8.3 engine with only 505 cu in and a turbo makes the same horse power as the NHC-250, 855 cu in. The NHC-250, 855 was at the end of it's design limit.
 

BillabongKong

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Thanks Nonotagain !
I was going to suggest a visit to GL for all your horsepower needs. At relatively bargain prices backed by thousands of hours of engineering.
 

palskidoo

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toys1.jpg
Jayco36REQS, you mentioned you've done some tractor pulling with blowers and/or turbos. I just wanted to jump in share my little Turbo Farmall H project. Built myself a bilt on kit and she boosts 15-20 psi frequently!


 

BillabongKong

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Inspiring post palskidoo! I guess thats what this thread is really about. The satisfaction of innovation and homegrown Horsepower.
Im Subscribed!
 

Jayco36REQS

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Orlando/FL
palskidoo, what class do you run your tractor in? I've grown up in the 7,200lb modified tractor and 2wd modified truck classes with my family. My dad currently runs a tripple BB chrysler modified tractor. The thing I like about the pulling sport is that you get to see a thousand ways to solve a problem... each with unique engineering values, and some with "what were they thinking??" as well! lol I get a kick out of talking to the Super Stock and Pro Stock tractor drivers with double or tripple turbos, or lately blown and turbo diesels with alcohol injection... some seriously crazy setups, but WOW... serious power!!

Ok so I'm guessing that it's a BIG NO... that no one around here has tried to supercharge one of these beasts.... So it makes me want to try something different even more! hehehe I had a discussion with a guy last night about research he is doing with electric superchargers?? Interesting idea too... Hey, it's all about adding boosted air supply right?

I'm going to keep looking into things and see which direction I go... centrifigul Vortech? a Vortech feeding a turbo? electric surpercharger? Start maybe at shooting for 10-15psi and go from there. Of course.. added guages for boost, EGT, fuel pressure, etc to see hwo things are effected.

As a couple have said.. engines are realitively cheap from GL... The rest is trial, play, and labor.
 

Cycletek

Member
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Location
Panguitch, Utah
Go ahead and hang another 3 lbs worth of pulleys on the front of the NHC-250. When you break the end of the crank off, you'll have the rememberance of doing it your way.

Cummins got away from the small cam engine design due to the requirement of additional horse power. If all they had to do was to add a super charger, there's a pretty good chance that they looked at it.



The Cummins 8.3 engine with only 505 cu in and a turbo makes the same horse power as the NHC-250, 855 cu in. The NHC-250, 855 was at the end of it's design limit.

First of all there is not too much resistance in the rotation of a geared Vortech Supercharger, secondly the pulleys are all light now and use a multi rib belts. I am looking at a modest torque increase just like my Detroit I built for my 32,000 pound bus. It pulls a 25 foot Stacker Trailer with 2 cars in it, I had guys like you that told me it couldn't be done too, guess what 30,000 miles later it still runs great, the back half of my bus didn't break off like the said it would, i did reinforce the chassis. Just remember the aftermarket exists because people that had an idea made a plan and executed it well. Just because you cannot do it, doesn't mean someone else cannot. I am planning a lot of changes to "my" truck that I own, besides you have no idea what my experiences are and what my potential is, so you can sit there with all your negativity and take a dump on someone else's ideas. You make assumptions about stuff you do not know for a fact, they may have tried it and maybe found that the "bean counters" did not like the numbers. But I am making an assumption as well, but at least I admit it.
 
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