NJ seeks to ban MV's in state forests

[SteveKuhn]

"... A small group has ruined it for everyone else which is how it always goes."
Matt

But it behooves us to oppose, nonetheless.

There are really 2 parts to this: The irresponsible operators and the state painting with too broad a brush and creating redundant rules based on false premises.

If you have not done so, go back and read the rule at the link. The problems that have been surfacing in this thread aren't vehicle-specific, let alone HMMV or M35 specific.

Therein lies the problem with allowing these rules to get through.

If you perceive and state the problem incorrectly, you end up with the wrong remedy.

Steve

 

[Big Mike's Motor Pool]

There are many problems that caused this problem. Idiots are one of them, and perhaps the biggest part of it. The environmental people are another problem.

The environmental people are greedy, They oppose setting aside of an area for off roading. The state spent over a million dollars a few years back on property that was an old sand quarry so it could establish an offroad park and it all fell through even though they already had the aquisition of the property.
There was a park before, but every year the dep took acreage back, and it went from over 200 acres of old mining area when it opened to about 50 acres after the 10 year lease ran out with the nj consevation society.
At the close of the park, the dep jacked up fines for atv riding and said it would have a new park within 3 years or the fines will decrease back to old standards. Their plan was to have 3 parks in total someday. Jan. of 2013 marks 3 years and we still have nothing, and its mainly due to the dep shooting down every idea for legalized offroading.

Personally, I enjoy riding the state forest fire roads and fire trails on my ATV. My grizzly has the correct registration, numerical display and insurance required by the state of NJ. Im not trying to advocate illegal activity here, but I know Im going to get fined for riding if I run into the law but I do it anyway. Im not out tearing up campsites or riding wheelies over people on horses, but I do ride. I can get on my grizzly and ride 200 foot down my street and hit dirt and just go. Average rides are about 80 miles, sometimes as high as 120. Its an adventure and I love it as do many friends of mine. Its very relaxing and theraputic to take a nice lazy atv ride through the pines.

In a way I wish that the state would issue permits to ride ATVs in the state parks, but in another way I dont. If they did there would be a flood of people doing it and it would become dangerous.

A soloution needs to be reached. Im afraid it never will be though. In the end I'll probably end up leaving the state for more friendly territory.

 

[jerseyjeep2003]

The Department proposes a definition of “off-road vehicle.” The greater availability of
new types of off-road vehicles and the popularity of their use in State Parks and Forests is having
detrimental effects on many areas of New Jersey’s State Parks and Forests. Use of off-road
vehicles is causing erosion, destruction of the habitat for sensitive animals and plants, and other
negative impacts. The proposed definition applies to N.J.A.C. 7:2-3.4(d), Restriction on
operation of motor vehicles, which precludes the use of off-road vehicles on any land or water
under the jurisdiction of the State Park Service, except under limited circumstances

Sounds like they are ultimately going after ALL 4 wheel drive vehicles.

I had seen that the SOCIALIST State of NJ has until Jan 2013 to provide an ORV Park or this becomes null. I hope that is the case, because this state is so poorly run that they could never afford to pull off a state run park.

And yet another reason to flee this socialistic state.

 

[jerseyjeep2003]

Every October a local Jeep/4 wheel club organizes a clean up of Wharton State forest around the Atsion area. I have participated almost every year for the past 8 years. We clean up dumpsters of everything from beer cans to tires, to BOATS and MOBILE CAMPERS. None of US put that trash there, but in an effort to keep OUR woods (not the rangers as I have heard all too many times..."my woods" as they like to say) Unfortunately none of our efforts reach the media, tree huggers, or the politicraps.

I wonder if my deuce will be allowed to participate in this years clean up. Or since they seem to want all 4x4's out, maybe we should just cancel and let the trash mound up. As it seems that most of it has been dumped by partyers, contractors and locals that are too cheap to pay for the trash service. It seems to me that it would take more effort to haul some of this stuff into the woods, than it would take to haul it to the curb. AAAARRRGGGGHHH!!!!

I have always played by the rule, " pack out MORE than you pack in". I guess some people just don't care that they have ruined it for everybody.

AGAIN, I can't wait to get out of this Socialist state.....Tennessee here I come. Looking for 250+ acres that I can set up an off road park.

 

[jerseyjeep2003]

Every October a local Jeep/4 wheel club organizes a clean up of Wharton State forest around the Atsion area. I have participated almost every year for the past 8 years. We clean up dumpsters of everything from beer cans to tires, to BOATS and MOBILE CAMPERS. None of US put that trash there, but in an effort to keep OUR woods (not the rangers as I have heard all too many times..."my woods" as they like to say) Unfortunately none of our efforts reach the media, tree huggers, or the politicraps.

I wonder if my deuce will be allowed to participate in this years clean up. Or since they seem to want all 4x4's out, maybe we should just cancel and let the trash mound up. As it seems that most of it has been dumped by partyers, contractors and locals that are too cheap to pay for the trash service. It seems to me that it would take more effort to haul some of this stuff into the woods, than it would take to haul it to the curb. AAAARRRGGGGHHH!!!!

I have always played by the rule, " pack out MORE than you pack in". I guess some people just don't care that they have ruined it for everybody.

AGAIN, I can't wait to get out of this Socialist state.....Tennessee here I come. Looking for 250+ acres that I can set up an off road park.

 

[SteveKuhn]

JerseyJeep: Send those last comments about the cleanup to DEP on the form. That's the kind of stuff that they need to get.

Steve

 

[rickf]

Jerseyjeep, do you remember the conversations we had about those cleanups? I said then that the people you were trying to impress were not listening and they were still going to close the trails. That was what, a year or two ago? This is nothing new, it has just been brought to the forefront by the amount of activity out there since the rangers got laid off. Oh, and it is a State park so it is their woods not yours. You have the right to use it if you follow the rules. The maximum tire size now is 40 inch and the largest it ever was was 44 inch so they could keep you out on that technicality.

Rick

Rick

 

[jeepinjp]

Wow lots of good comments here.. I am a NJ OHV user, jeeps,bikes,quads,no MV`s yet but 4 year member of MTA.. As an OHV advocate I have for years fought the anti-access/exclusionist NJ groups that hide behind environmental....Just as a background I am the NOHVCC NJ rep, I am the current VP of Blue Ribbon Coalition, I am on the NJ trails council and have started 2 NJ OHV association that flounder because in NJ noone cares until everything is gone..OH yea and I am a Tread Lightly Trainer and it is not dead....I worked for years to kill the legislation a few have mentioned the problem is on January 13th 2013 the only thing that dies if no park is built are the fees the fines stay...

My take on this change in the code is a way to possible usurp the legislation if things work out in our favor... fat chance.I suggest adding Bob Martin DEP Commissioner and Governor Chris Christy to your letter writing group as well as your legislators/

As for the culprits it is those that are unaffiliated with clubs,groups and associations that are doing the majority of the damage. And like our 2nd ammendment this code changewill only stop the legal and responsible folks from enjoying out backcountry areas, those doing the damage will continue. Most of us are good stewards of our areas..many of the "green groups will go to any ends to keep motorized out of public areas..you know the one they move out of NYC and now they think they are in the wilderness and preserving(it their way) that is more important than anything we want to doIt is a handful of asshats that are screwing all of us and I have no problem turning in a wheeler if they are screwing up my chances of riding legally.
Half the problem is NJ has no OHV program so there are no legal areas hence folks go deeper and deeper into the woods to more pristine areas not to get caught and were they really shouldn`t be..but since the exclusionist fight tooth and nail to not allow any legal areas....I blame them for a good deal of the impact of areas by legal non destructive users..Half of the problem would go away immediately if there were legal areas...

thanks for your time..

 

[rickf]

Wow lots of good comments here.. I am a NJ OHV user, jeeps,bikes,quads,no MV`s yet but 4 year member of MTA.. As an OHV advocate I have for years fought the anti-access/exclusionist NJ groups that hide behind environmental....Just as a background I am the NOHVCC NJ rep, I am the current VP of Blue Ribbon Coalition, I am on the NJ trails council and have started 2 NJ OHV association that flounder because in NJ noone cares until everything is gone..OH yea and I am a Tread Lightly Trainer and it is not dead....I worked for years to kill the legislation a few have mentioned the problem is on January 13th 2013 the only thing that dies if no park is built are the fees the fines stay...

My take on this change in the code is a way to possible usurp the legislation if things work out in our favor... fat chance.I suggest adding Bob Martin DEP Commissioner and Governor Chris Christy to your letter writing group as well as your legislators/

As for the culprits it is those that are unaffiliated with clubs,groups and associations that are doing the majority of the damage. And like our 2nd ammendment this code changewill only stop the legal and responsible folks from enjoying out backcountry areas, those doing the damage will continue. Most of us are good stewards of our areas..many of the "green groups will go to any ends to keep motorized out of public areas..you know the one they move out of NYC and now they think they are in the wilderness and preserving(it their way) that is more important than anything we want to doIt is a handful of asshats that are screwing all of us and I have no problem turning in a wheeler if they are screwing up my chances of riding legally.
Half the problem is NJ has no OHV program so there are no legal areas hence folks go deeper and deeper into the woods to more pristine areas not to get caught and were they really shouldn`t be..but since the exclusionist fight tooth and nail to not allow any legal areas....I blame them for a good deal of the impact of areas by legal non destructive users..Half of the problem would go away immediately if there were legal areas...

thanks for your time..

Good luck in your battle, you see where the problem lies. I don't have a clue what the organizations are that you listed in your back ground. I was fighting this battle (and losing) since long before any organizations existed. I finally gave up in the mid nineties. In your letters to the DEP you might want to mention all of the clear cutting of the virgin timber that is going on in the name of " the ecology " . Bull crap! It is in the name of money. The trees being planted are plantation style and not even the same breed of trees. They just happen to be a breed that grows fast and can be cut again. Oh, and they are planted in rows, ever see that in nature?

Rick

 

[jerseyjeep2003]

All this as New Jersey goes broke at the hands of corrupt politicians. Lock up the land, gun control, take more and more of the hard earned monies, and move the masses along the cattle shoot
highways and byways. What is next?

 

[rickf]

Mass exodus and bankruptcy.

 

[jerseyjeep2003]

I think this whole country is ready for another revolution. Waaay to much gov't taking away more of our freedoms every single day.

 

[Flyingvan911]

Easy now. This thread is starting to turn a corner toward the negative side of political discussion. I am not disagreeing with anyone. I just don't want anyone getting in trouble.

I agree with opposing the legislation. It seems like enforcement is the issue. When the rule brakers get busted the word will get around and most trouble makers will stay away.

 

[jerseyjeep2003]

How about instead of a a large group breaking the "law" by descending on the Pines, we all just gather and descend on Trenton and voice our opinion? In an orderly fashion of course.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

August 5th, 2012.

Beyond getting periously close to "political speech", I can see you fellows in NJ have a problem. The problem is that too many unthinking people are damaging the State forests and parks with off road vehicles of every type, and so an administrative solution has been proposed. Unfortunately, with too few Park Rangers to take out, ticket and impound the offenders rides and wallets, the rest of you all get tarred with their brush. Regrettably, if it were me, I'd err on the side of enforcement, impoundment and heavy fines untill the offenders are properly dispatched, but if the damage is as extensive as they seem to say it is, perhaps it might be well to close the area until clean up efforts, wildlife and plantlife can reestablish itself.
Most Park Services have first a mission to protect and preserve, then, and only then, to make the areas available for reasonable recreation purposes. Once an area is irreversibly damaged, and the ecosystem is demolished, then all the FWD types need is a good unreclaimed West Virginia strip mine to off road in. If you haven't seen one of those in person, you'd appreciate what the Park Rangers are trying to stop from happening in your state.
For those advocating revolution, please do give it a shot, there are many of us sworn to uphold the law as part of our jobs, so I believe we would enforce it where and how it is needed to best solve the problem and protect the resource. It is talk like that, and behavior like those folks who are tearing up the Parks, that builds a case for more control and more limited access. If you can't handle having the resources protected, please move west and mess up other areas where people value their land less then their "Rights", the result might just decrease the pressure on your state parks, but I doubt it, as the east coast is much too populous now for that to have a substantial effect.
It may be that too many of "us" value our present rights too much, to place any real value on the condition of the world we are creating for the future generations, otherwise we would be doing many things in our daily lives much differently. Just my "IMHOP", but in any case some solution will be reached down your way, let's hope that reason and not just emotion and "wind" prevails.....

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

Well stated, Kyle!

And worthy of reading a SECOND TIME, so here it is again......

August 5th, 2012.

Beyond getting periously close to "political speech", I can see you fellows in NJ have a problem. The problem is that too many unthinking people are damaging the State forests and parks with off road vehicles of every type, and so an administrative solution has been proposed. Unfortunately, with too few Park Rangers to take out, ticket and impound the offenders rides and wallets, the rest of you all get tarred with their brush. Regrettably, if it were me, I'd err on the side of enforcement, impoundment and heavy fines untill the offenders are properly dispatched, but if the damage is as extensive as they seem to say it is, perhaps it might be well to close the area until clean up efforts, wildlife and plantlife can reestablish itself.
Most Park Services have first a mission to protect and preserve, then, and only then, to make the areas available for reasonable recreation purposes. Once an area is irreversibly damaged, and the ecosystem is demolished, then all the FWD types need is a good unreclaimed West Virginia strip mine to off road in. If you haven't seen one of those in person, you'd appreciate what the Park Rangers are trying to stop from happening in your state.
For those advocating revolution, please do give it a shot, there are many of us sworn to uphold the law as part of our jobs, so I believe we would enforce it where and how it is needed to best solve the problem and protect the resource. It is talk like that, and behavior like those folks who are tearing up the Parks, that builds a case for more control and more limited access. If you can't handle having the resources protected, please move west and mess up other areas where people value their land less then their "Rights", the result might just decrease the pressure on your state parks, but I doubt it, as the east coast is much too populous now for that to have a substantial effect.
It may be that too many of "us" value our present rights too much, to place any real value on the condition of the world we are creating for the future generations, otherwise we would be doing many things in our daily lives much differently. Just my "IMHOP", but in any case some solution will be reached down your way, let's hope that reason and not just emotion and "wind" prevails.....

Well stated, Kyle!

And worthy of reading a SECOND TIME, so here it is again......

 

[pyro1955]

We had a similar issue here in Michigan, some lowlife lawyer from Detroit choose to sue the Federal Government to ban Snowmobiles, ATV's and Hunters from already established trails and Hunting areas as some crazy "Class Action Lawsuit" because some groups of people deserved "Quiet" areas. I still don't know how, but the outcome was basically that everything was going to be left as it had already been established. Sad fact is though that this lowlife attorney was paid over $300k for his "Services" for the lawsuit, once that was published it became clear why this attorney filed the lawsuit, it was not because he wanted a to walk in the woods.... More like he wanted to pick up his Cash! If the people that actually use the woods and trails in New Jersey want to fight this, you will be forced to spend the $$$ in the courts, and I'd bet the people that filed the legislation are the attorneys that will be paid dearly to fight you all. This country has become nothing but a bunch of special interest groups forcing the rest of us to follow their lame rule.

 

[Torisco]

West Coast Problem as well.

bingo!!!

I live in a rural area of Califonria (Bishop, California) We have been subjected to the same issues as N.J.

Several years ago an enormous amount of the entire high desert area of California was closed to any vehicular traffic for the same reasons.

It goes back to the very reason pointed out in the post of rickf;1187056.

Recently a local citizens group and business from Bishop donated heavy equipment to clean up an area called the Buckley Ponds that had been destoryed by THE FEW who came up on weekends and left mountains of trash and damage . The clean up pulled out tires, coolers, car parts, camping gear, bottles, diapers, cans and so on.

I am positive there were a few local idiots who contributed to the wrecking of this area. The ponds were re-stocked with bass and trout and are again usable.

No sooner was this clean up completed that we are now having the same problem in an area called the coyotes. It never seems to end!

Today it is a constant battle to try and prevent and clean-up the mess left by a new wave of uncaring, irresponsible, selfish, me first people who want thier kicks regardless of the cost to the majority of the people who support and use these areas responsibly...Again, the many suffer for the deeds of the few.

IMHO,
Gordon

 

[G-Force]

Jeez.....if I want to go offroading I'll just pay the $13.00 and go across the George Washington Bridge to the offroad park.........oh wait.......that's Manhattan

 

[rickf]

Once an area is irreversibly damaged, and the ecosystem is demolished, then all the FWD types need is a good unreclaimed West Virginia strip mine to off road in. If you haven't seen one of those in person, you'd appreciate what the Park Rangers are trying to stop from happening in your state.

This is what has happened in the pines, There were abandoned gravel pits that we used to play in. Well then people started expanding outward further and further away from the pits. It got to the point that for many miles around the pit there were hundreds of concentrated trails and mud pits. This happened around every old pit. So yes, this is EXACTLY what they are trying to prevent. For you NJ guys that are advocating revolution, I know you all know where Hidden Lakes is. I remember when there was nothing more there than a dock and a rope swing! No truck trails, no broken glass. Oh yea, there was a boxed in natural spring. The wheelers drove right through that. I actually have pictures of it back then but I do not have a scanner.