No Start - Oil Pressure - 802a

[Toolslinger]

I'll preface this with the fact I haven't looked in the TM's yet. I'll likely be doing that rather than twiddling my thumbs at work tomorrow. No emergency, so no urgent need.

I went out to start the 802a today. Hasn't run in a while, so I thought I'd put some fuel additives, and winter stabilizer in it since the weather is beginning to be less nice.

Checked the fluids, batteries, etc. All seemed well. Hit Prime/Run, and the pump was ticking over fine. Went to Start, and I got 1 rotation, and it kicked out. Oil Pressure light was on, pump was off. Reset, and same deal.

I did try the dead crank switch, and the unit sounds fine turning over. I took a quick look in the control box, and all seems ok in terms of no smoke/sparks/fire, and no mouse evidence, but that's as far as I went.

I'll be away from it for several days. So I have plenty of time to read the TM, but I can't test/try anything until I get back here with some time for it. It's also kinda a hard condition to hit a tight search for here. If this sounds like something you've seen commonly, I'd be happy with a pointer to a thread, or the first thing you'd check. I really don't have enough time on this machine to have any feeling for where to start. (other than ordering another can of DeOxit, 'cause I just killed mine on another machine today)

 

[Ray70]

First thing that comes to my mind is weak batteries, may sound odd to you, but I've seen similar results before when the batteries are weak and the cranking relay doesn't receive quite enough power to stay closed because the starter is sucking up all available amperage, resulting in the relay opening and starter disconnecting. Since the remaining controls still have power the fault indicator may get confused and throw on the oil pressure light.

 

[Toolslinger]

Ok, I'll add that to the list. I've got a Noco in there, and it claimed the batteries were fine/full, but what a charger sees, and what a batt can output are sometimes not the same thing. It did sound happy kicking over on the dead crank though.

 

[Guyfang]

Well, the LOP is showing you what it sees. If the engine will not start, you have no oil pressure. So Low Oil Pressure may not be your problem. Disconnect the fault indicator, and try and start the set. What happens? Do not run it long. Just long enough to see if it starts.

 

[DieselAddict]

My money is on one bad battery. Might show good on voltage but it may not be making current.

Stick a volt meter on each one then hit preheat. See if they hold voltage with the heaters going. If one of the batteries has a problem it will fall flat under load.

 

[Ray70]

My money is on one bad battery. Might show good on voltage but it may not be making current.

Stick a volt meter on each one then hit preheat. See if they hold voltage with the heaters going. If one of the batteries has a problem it will fall flat under load.

EXACTLY! I once had an 802 that acted similar, had new batteries in it and would crank ok from the dead crank switch, but just click and disengage from S1. Turned out the battery crossover wire had chaffed against the bottom corner of the block and pretty much killed the right hand battery.

 

[Guyfang]

Well, with the S10 switch, the starter turns, but the preheat is not engaged. Thats a big draw when using the S1.

 

[Toolslinger]

Well, while I don't want to replace batteries, it would sure be the easiest option...

I'll come back with the results in a week, or two at the worst.

 

[Guyfang]

TEST FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Toolslinger]

Well, yea. I try very hard not to throw parts and money at issues.

 

[Ray70]

Get yourself a cheap $19 100A battery load tester from Harbor Freight, or just take the batteries to any DECENT auto parts store and have them load tested.
If one is holding a surface charge only, the voltage will drop to nearly zero as soon as you apply the load.

 

[Toolslinger]

Well.... It's a good news, bad news deal. The bad news is far more extreme than the good.

The batteries are just fine. Yay!

Actually I don't currently care.

The bad news, is some wiring burned up.

The second I opened the side doors I could smell burned/hot electrical. I flat out know that smell, but I told myself it was just the battery tester I had just pulled out of a bag that I borrowed from the neighbor. I know that might smell like hot/burned dust from the coil, but I was hoping it was just a crappy harbor freight unit that was burning up internally, and not the generator. Tester worked fine.

Hopes were dashed.

Opened the control panel to find this.



Well, I don't have the time currently to dive in to this, so it'll get put inside the barn, and I will hopefully get to it this winter. Disconnected the batteries naturally. There are 2 other machines in front of this in the cue. I know what I'm in for with them, so this may be deeper in the cold weather, and I'll be pulling out the open frame gas unit again for the winter. Power is pretty solid here, so this isn't a problem, so much as a real pain. Didn't see any burn below this space, but also didn't go much further in.

 

[Guyfang]

I would like to see where the other end of the wires burnt up, when ever you get a chance. .

 

[Toolslinger]

I will report back for sure, 'cause I'll be asking for help. I think I have nice weather tomorrow morning before I skip town, so hopefully I can do a little more inspection then.

Without any more info than you see, it kinda looks like a whole lotta heat from a bad connection in J7. Be nice if all it was, was a bad connection, but I doubt I'll be that lucky.

More to come.

 

[Toolslinger]

Cool and damp, but not bad to look around today.
I pulled the pinout for the J7/P7 connection that burned. I'm not quite familiar enough with these units yet to know what all the abbreviations are, so I wanted something that told me what was connected through there that made sense to me. This is what I've got...



I ran my inspection cam through everything to take photos of what I can't easily see, plus I will have lots of photos to stare at over the weekend down time. I'm not going to blanket post a ton of photos that just show lots of wire, and components, unless something pops out, or someone asks for something specific. This was just a quick survey. For the most part, everything looks ok. Lots of dust, and cobwebs, but nothing jumping out as bad. There is something questionable going on with the oil pressure switch wiring. Camera was running out of juice, so came in to charge.




I didn't really see that dark area during the quick visual.



This whole bundle is filthy, so it might be nothing. Will have to break it all open to clean and inspect. I expect I'd be doing that anyway for testing things, so it would show up regardless, but at least it's something that's a possible issue indicator. (ya know, other than the burned connection in the control box) Probably just fixating since I had the oil pressure warning light.

Looks like some possible heat damage down on P7 as well. Pretty much would expect that. Hard to really say though until I pull it apart. Kinda looks like it was hot just above the 10 in the date stamp.

 

[Toolslinger]

Back out, and back in...
Wire at the Oil Pressure sensor has been hot for sure. This is running to the Red wire on the sensor. Sorry for the huge photos. Phone is set way higher than the inspection cam...


Cause, or result? Can't guess yet.
On to other things before I'm out the door.

 

[2Pbfeet]

Could the blackness be spilled oil?

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Toolslinger]

Well, the black was somewhat oily, after wiping the wires down, only the one wire was discolored. It's possible that particular piece of wire's jacket stained more easily I suppose. I will clip more wire ties further back to see if that continues.
I can't think of how that sensor/switch could do anything to heat a wire. It's just an on/off I believe.
Really would like to get back there to get the unit inside where I can start a better investigation.

 

[DieselAddict]

I'd take some parts cleaner spray and see if you can clean things up a bit. It may make things a lot easier to figure out.

A bad connection over time can generate enough heat to do some real damage even though the amount of potential energy is low. I had a generator that melted one of the bulkhead connectors even through the only power wire in the bunch was for running the relays in the control cubicle. Maybe 1 amp?? That was still enough.