Painted M1009 with Waterborn CARC

[chevyrac66]

Well guys today we (Rooster87, 101coolcars, and I) painted one of our M1009's with waterborn CARC Today. We used F93B505 Black, F93G504 Green, and F93N505 Brown. Which meets MIL-DTL-64159, Type II. The product is made by Sherwin Williams. We started by preping a few of the dents. The only bad ones were in the tailgate where we repaired them and spot primed it. We covered them with a dry coat of CARC before we painted the whole vehicle to help with any future problems of bleed through or paint transparancy. We masked the vehicle in about 30 min and had it fully prepped within an hour. This was my first time spraying waterborn paints and I liked it! It looks really good in the booth and its super easy to apply! We got some new paint suits since the last post. They were awesome and kept all the overspray off of us. We made sure to use our respirators since this stuff is pretty mean, but overall it wasnt as bad in the paint booth as even regular paint, Guess thats the benefit of waterborn, less VOC released into the atomosphere. We started mixing the paint at a 2 to 1 to .5 ratio. Which is 2 parts base 1 part activator and .5 parts water. That's right folks water in your paint!!!! The paint smelled terrible and had begun to seperate in the can, so we called our Sherwin Williams supplier and they said its supposed to smell and to to mix it extremely well. We did a few quick spray outs on the back glass masking and we started right up! First thing I noticed was that waterborn paints cover extremely well and didnt run hardly at all! You really gotta hose it on to run! It laid down over the old CARC very well and had excellent coverage. It's extremely glossy at first but as soon as it begins to dry (5 min) it flattens out extremely well! It has a little bit of a texture to it which helps it look "flatter" per say. The colors looked better to me than the GCI stuff but the surface was a little bit more delicate even after "flashing" . Which means dry but not cured. It's not nearly as forgiving at flashed "regular" paint. It didnt leave nearly as much overspray on the adjoing panels and floor. We were even able to do all the camo with very little overspray that takes away from the camo'd look. No lines where we filled in the black and brown like with GCI, Only took one coat for full coverage on all colors! I am very impressed with this product! It was really nice to spray a new product for the first time with no problems! Here's some pics!! The first pic is 101coolcars (black suit) and I! Second is Rooster87 and I. The rest are pics of the product and the process! My camera died as we were wrapping up but hopefully tommorrow Ill get some pics of it finished and pulled out front tommorrow! Hope this helps with some of the questions about waterborn and CARC application for you guys!

 

[Westech]

Looks great!

 

[mtjbrown]

Is this the kind of paint you have have air blowing across it to dry properly? If so, what did you use for that? Looks good, BTW the truck, not you guys

 

[ETHOS]

how much was the paint?

 

[chevyrac66]

Yeah our Garmat booth has built it air circulation fans on the ceiling, It's not required but it speeds the "flashing" process before you bake the paint for curing. This product requires a flash time of 60 min without an air circulations system before you bake it. You can also let it sit for 8 hours I believe with this particular product and it will be set cured... full cure in 7 days again with this product. All paints reach "full cure" in a much greater time frame than a "force cure" or basically when you bake your paint booth to make it dry enough to handle.

 

[101coolcars]

paint cost

how much was the paint?

Our supplier, sherman williams commercial coatings charges about 55 per can of part A and 60 (I think) for Part B, we elected to use cheap distilled water instead of the recommended 40 per gal water they sold. So it is more than GCI. Different, do you like the "look"?

 

[bond024]

do you have to bake this kind of paint, or is this something that can be sprayed out of a paint booth.

 

[chevyrac66]

It is not completly necessary to bake according to the data sheets we got from Sherwin Williams.. however as with any paint application it should be done in a "clean" enviroment to keep dirt and debris out of your finish. http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&prodno=035777618110&doctype=PDS&lang=E According to this ( product data sheet) it will hard dry in 6 hours dry through in 8 without any baking.

 

[91W350]

That is what my M1008 was sprayed with. It still had not fully cured everyplace when I picked it up and a couple of weeks later it was set pretty solidly. It is a little smoother than the original paint, but I really like it. They did not bake mine, sprayed it, left it in the booth overnight, then parked it outside. I think it looks great. Nice job on the camo, I like it! Glen

 

[clinto]

Thanks for the great writeup and the pictures. The 1009 looks fantastic. Nothing looks like real CARC for sure!

 

[davidkroberts]

thanks for the writeup.... always good to hear first hand about stuff most of us havent used before

 

[REGULATOR]

Shame your not in GA, I could use a new paint job and that looks great

 

[stumps]

What did Sherwin Williams say about isocyanates, and your respirator system? It is my understanding that water borne is just as bad that way as solvent borne CARC.

-Chuck

 

[101coolcars]

What did Sherwin Williams say about isocyanates, and your respirator system? It is my understanding that water borne is just as bad that way as solvent borne CARC.

-Chuck

The tech sheet can be found a sherman williams, but to summerize a either a forced air hood or a Niosh approved repirator is ok, and spray in a well ventalated area. Water born product have less "volitile organic compounds" so I would say is "less" bad

People in the industry say waterborne products are the wave of the future. I like the cutback on waste thinner.

Thanks
Terry

 

[stumps]

The tech sheet can be found a sherman williams, but to summerize a either a forced air hood or a Niosh approved repirator is ok, and spray in a well ventalated area. Water born product have less "volitile organic compounds" so I would say is "less" bad

People in the industry say waterborne products are the wave of the future. I like the cutback on waste thinner.

Thanks
Terry

Isocyanate is a gas, not a volatile organic compound. It is a component of the urethane hardener, as I recall.

EPA worries about photo chemical smog. VOC components contribute to photo chemical smog, so they have been heavily regulated out of paints... hence the water based paints, and varnishes.

Respirator cartridges stop VOC's, but do nothing to gases. If they did stop gases, you would find it hard to breathe when they gobbled up the oxygen from the air . If water borne CARC has isocyanates, you still need to use a fresh air respirator.

-Chuck

 

[101coolcars]

painting carc

Isocyanate is a gas, not a volatile organic compound. It is a component of the urethane hardener, as I recall.

EPA worries about photo chemical smog. VOC components contribute to photo chemical smog, so they have been heavily regulated out of paints... hence the water based paints, and varnishes.

Respirator cartridges stop VOC's, but do nothing to gases. If they did stop gases, you would find it hard to breathe when they gobbled up the oxygen from the air . If water borne CARC has isocyanates, you still need to use a fresh air respirator.

-Chuck

The tech sheet speaks for itself, relating to required/recommended/mandated spray painting equipment. I will re,re, read it. This isnt going to turn into a tech article on respirators is it?

RESPIRATORY PROTECTION
​

​

Where overspray is present, a positive pressure air supplied respirator (TC19C NIOSH/MSHA approved) should be worn. If unavailable, a
properly fitted organic vapor/particulate respirator approved by NIOSH/MSHA for protection against materials in Section 2 may be
effective. Follow respirator manufacturers directions for use. Wear the respirator for the whole time of spraying and until all vapors and​

mists are gone.

NO PERSONS SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN THE AREA WHERE THIS PRODUCT IS BEING USED UNLESS EQUIPPED

WITH THE SAME RESPIRATOR PROTECTION RECOMMENDED FOR THE PAINTERS.
​

​

When sanding, wirebrushing, abrading, burning or welding the dried film, wear a particulate respirator approved by NIOSH/MSHA for​

protection against non-volatile materials in Section 2.

If you were painting all day every day forced air would be prudent, this is not the case here.the tech sheet uses words like should, and may. not must or never.

So thanks for your opinion, If the guys want to paint their trucks, please use common sense and a good repirator, because not everyone has a forced air repirator, and the tech sheet does not mandate their use.

Oh, I almost forgot, don't drink the paint, its bad for you.

101coolcars



​

 

[stumps]

The tech sheet speaks for itself, relating to required/recommended/mandated spray painting equipment. I will re,re, read it. This isn't going to turn into a tech article on respirators is it?

No, I hope not.

I am very impressed with the job this waterborne CARC does, and I would like to use it... but I am having trouble finding the necessary information to determine what is necessary to use it safely... Since you bought the product, if Sherwin Williams did their job, you should have it in hand.

If you read the section about respirators, you will see (I think) that the wording is:

"...If unavailable, a properly fitted organic vapor/particulate respirator approved by NIOSH/MHSA for protection against materials in Section 2 MAY BE effective."

May be, not will be.

Which is exactly the same wording they used on non water borne CARC.

Notice that isocyanates are not listed in section 2!

In the non water based 2 part CARC, the catalyst is where the problems are. It is loaded with isocyanates. If the water based CARC has the same catalyst mix, then the issues are exactly the same.

What is the ingredient list for your catalyst? Did they give you its MSDS? It's a different sheet in the 2 part non water based CARC.

Unfortunately, you can't know if you have developed a sensitivity for isocyanates until you end up on the ground gasping for air.... it is a bit like playing Russian roulette.

I don't like the idea of my SS friends laying on the ground gasping for air.

-Chuck

 

[mistaken1]

You can go here to get the msds sheets ....

Military - Markets - Products - Product Finishes

Two component waterborne carc

MIL-DTL-64159, Type II - Products - Product Finishes

 

[stumps]

I still can't find the MSDS for the catalyst (93V502). It is the important part, as it is where the isocyanates would exist.

-Chuck

 

[Nonotagain]

I still can't find the MSDS for the catalyst (93V502). It is the important part, as it is where the isocyanates would exist.

-Chuck

Chuck,

I have to wait until I go back to work on Tuesday, but I have the MSDS sheets for both Hentzen and Sherwin Williams Mil-Dtl-64159 CARC.

The two most common isocyanides are TDI (toluene diisocyanate) and HDI (hexamethylene diisocyanate). Both of these products are a liquid not a gas. Both have a very low vapor pressure.

As for allergic reactions to isocynates, most not all people slowly develop a reaction to isocynates, though most reactions are dermal not respiratory. It is extremely rare for someone that has never been exposed to isocynates to have a reaction so severe as to fall to the floor and not be able to breath. Super glue contains isocynates.

From me performing the receiving inspection of these products, I can tell you that the waterborne CARC's aren't as potent smell wise as the solvent based versions. I can’t examine the condition of the product with a full-face respirator on and verify some of the materials properties.

Our EH&S department is more concerned with chrome exposure than isocyantes. We use three different types of respirators, supplied air; air purifying, and organic vapor masks. The supplied air respirators are full hooded and have an air chiller in line, but limit your movement. The air purifying respirators are still full hooded versions, though they have a fan assembly and three filter cartridges that contain activated charcoal and use a battery pack for power. The organic cartridge masks are half face and can only be used for painting operations that do not contain chrome.

Paint mixing operations release more isocynates than does the spray operation due to closer proximity to a larger volume of paint.