PNW Info Thread!

[REO 54]

Just looked at JBLM stock and it looks weak. Funny how things change. Hope all is well with the NW crew!

 

[REO 54]

Being able to drive my Deuce is one of best exprience

 

[jets1959]

Welcome back, Reo 54! Missed you dude! Is everything going better for you and your family! I sure hope so!

 

[hwcurtice]

JBLM has sent all MV to Cali. Most likely won't see them there again since they bailed on bidding for the contract.

 

[Amer-team]

Is anyone interested in doing the Winlock Egg Day parade? June 28, 2014. Last year we had 3 vehicles, M35, M54 and Tracy's Ural. If there is interest, I will put in a parade application. It is a small town and a nice parade. Parade starts and 1100 and doesn't take very long.

Don't forget July 4 in Centralia. Take a look at the event section for more details.

 

[REO 54]

Welcome back, Reo 54! Missed you dude! Is everything going better for you and your family! I sure hope so!

Thanks Dwayne. I pop in every now and then. Our reality is sure different now as well as our priorities. My wife is still continuing to improve as we do PT on our own. She still struggles with lack of quality sleep and neuropathy.

On top of all that, we lost Carole's mom on May 3 due to cancer. At least we were there to be with her. Life has sure been challenging as of late,but it bring into perspective what's really important in life: Family and friends, and making good memories because that is all that's going with you when we leave this earth.

So with that said I do hope I can participate with you all at some point.

Cheers! Dave

 

[mobileauto2000]

Dave

Put you and your wife back on my prayer list.

Still going to steal that red winch some day.

 

[drician]

Is anyone heading down to the Olympia air show this weekend?

 

[srodocker]

Amer-team aka peter I believe will be there. I may stop by. Not sure on scheduling with the wife right now.

 

[elkhtr]

Sorry if this is viewed as a hijack, but I thought that the P.N.W five ton owners would appreciate this.
After doing my own due dilligance with the Rcw's and Wac's, and getting a different answer from everybody I asked, I decided to try to put an end to the (is a C.D.L required) question.
I hired a lawyer, and had him chase this up mahogany row in Olympia.

First the disclamer, I am in no way advocating the unsafe or uneducated operation of these vehicles.
To protect our hobby you should know how to inspect, maintain, cola test, etc.
That said, this is what my lawyer found out.

Marc:

I spoke with WSP officer Balcom on Monday, June 23, 2014 in regard to my inquiry about the requirement for a CDL license for the operation of your 6X6 AMGEN vehicle. He referred me to RCW 46.04.140 and stated that the definition of "Commercial Vehicle" controls in your situation. He said the type of vehicle, it's weight or braking equipment were not determinative in such cases or situations as yours and your fellow military enthusiasts. I would keep a copy of this email and the attached copy of the RCW with you when driving your vehicle just in case you are stopped and challenged by law enforcement while operating your vehicle. Good Luck!

Best regards,
Jahnis J. Abelite, WSBA #11644
ABELITE LAW OFFICES P.S.
16710 Smokey Point Blvd., Suite 200
Arlington WA 98223

This came from the Olympia office in charge of rules and regulations.
Hope this helps.
Moderators, if i posted in the wrong forum please move.

 

[wsucougarx]

Outstanding work Marc. Your information is much appreciated and appropriate for this thread. Thank you

 

[DrillerSurplus]

Sorry if this is viewed as a hijack, but I thought that the P.N.W five ton owners would appreciate this.
After doing my own due dilligance with the Rcw's and Wac's, and getting a different answer from everybody I asked, I decided to try to put an end to the (is a C.D.L required) question.
I hired a lawyer, and had him chase this up mahogany row in Olympia.

First the disclamer, I am in no way advocating the unsafe or uneducated operation of these vehicles.
To protect our hobby you should know how to inspect, maintain, cola test, etc.
That said, this is what my lawyer found out.

Marc:

I spoke with WSP officer Balcom on Monday, June 23, 2014 in regard to my inquiry about the requirement for a CDL license for the operation of your 6X6 AMGEN vehicle. He referred me to RCW 46.04.140 and stated that the definition of "Commercial Vehicle" controls in your situation. He said the type of vehicle, it's weight or braking equipment were not determinative in such cases or situations as yours and your fellow military enthusiasts. I would keep a copy of this email and the attached copy of the RCW with you when driving your vehicle just in case you are stopped and challenged by law enforcement while operating your vehicle. Good Luck!

Best regards,
Jahnis J. Abelite, WSBA #11644
ABELITE LAW OFFICES P.S.


This came from the Olympia office in charge of rules and regulations.
Hope this helps.
Moderators, if i posted in the wrong forum please move.

Here is a link to the RCW. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.04.140

It is a short one.

[h=2]RCW 46.04.140[/h][h=1]Commercial vehicle.[/h]

"Commercial vehicle" means any vehicle the principal use of which is the transportation of commodities, merchandise, produce, freight, animals, or passengers for hire.
.
[1961 c 12 § 46.04.140. Prior: 1959 c 49 § 15; prior: (i) 1943 c 153 § 1, part; 1937 c 188 § 1, part; Rem. Supp. 1943 § 6312-1, part. (ii) 1937 c 189 § 1, part; RRS § 6360-1, part.]

 

[FullSpecial]

Good luck getting DOL or insurance to see it this way.........

 

[elkhtr]

My 923a1 is already licensed and insured in washington.
Not sure what you mean?

 

[Carlo]

Thanks Dwayne. I pop in every now and then. Our reality is sure different now as well as our priorities. My wife is still continuing to improve as we do PT on our own. She still struggles with lack of quality sleep and neuropathy.

On top of all that, we lost Carole's mom on May 3 due to cancer. At least we were there to be with her. Life has sure been challenging as of late,but it bring into perspective what's really important in life: Family and friends, and making good memories because that is all that's going with you when we leave this earth.

So with that said I do hope I can participate with you all at some point.

Cheers! Dave

im sorry for your loss. My wife recently lost her mother to small cell cancer. She fought a brave 6 year battle but in the end the cancer won out. Again my condolences.

 

[joelstevens21]

elkhtr, i'm sorry but i am still confused. do you need a cdl to be able to drive a 5 ton or can i put a not for hire sign on it and be able to drive on a standard license. If i put horseless carriage plates on an m813 does that except cdl requirements. i keep getting the run around from all the offices in oak harbor.

 

[IsaLandr]

Things are a little confused on this issue. Allow me to attempt to clarify once more. People are again confusing license class with CDL.

There are federal statutes on this that determine which class of license is required based on the *size* of the vehicle, not the application. Under the federal guidelines, which all the states currently enforce, you need at least a Class B license to operate any vehicle with a GVWR in excess of 26,001lbs. If you wish to tow a trailer that is over 10,000lbs GVWR, or if the combination of towing vehicle and towed vehicle together are over 26,001lbs, then a Class A is required. It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the general gist.

Essentially, the instant a vehicle crosses that magic 26,001lb GVWR/GCWR delineator, you're officially in Class B/A territory, and all the rules and statutes apply accordingly. The fines for violating these statutes are hefty, and can sometimes result in an impounded vehicle, so tread lightly.

Whether or not your license needs to be a CDL is determined by the context, not the vehicle type. You can get a CDL in nearly every class of license offered in most states. That's where the RCW specified earlier comes into play. For most of us, we're outside the commercial definition and therefore don't need a Commercial Driver License. As you can see in the RCW, it's a fairly loose definition, and can be interpreted on the side of the road by law enforcement as they see fit, to be sorted out in court later. But please bear in mind, whether or not you need a CDL, you still need the correct class of license for your vehicle, and that's not open to interpretation at all.

Bottom line? You need a Class B license to operate a military 5-ton or larger vehicle legally in the state of Washington, and in most other states. This is determined solely by the GVWR and GCWR listed for the vehicle on its data plate and/or registration forms. I'd get the CDL anyway if you can, it increases the things you can legally do with the truck and from the educational side improves your knowledge and skillbase when operating it. It might even lower your insurance costs. It makes you safer and makes those around you safer.

Putting a not for hire sign on it may or may not alleviate the CDL issues. It won't solve your license class issues.

There are several exceptions to this in WA and some other states, but those exceptions carry severe limitations and are better left discussed elsewhere.

 

[elkhtr]

@Joelstevens21, As far as the information we got from Olympia goes, Per officer Balcom you do not need a CDL to drive your truck unless you are using it for commercial purposes.
He is a supervisory level officer in Olympia at the office in charge of rules and regulations mentioned in the CDL drivers guide.
My lawyer hid nothing from him, we disclosed the full GVWR, and that it was air brakes, licensed as a collector vehicle.
I think they were viewing us the same as the large motor homes.

@IsaLandr, As far as i could find, unlike some other states, Washington does not have non-commercial class A or B licenses.
If you have found out different please advise.
If it was a matter of just going down and taking the test iI would be on board.
It is the 3 to 5 thousand, and the week off work to go to CDL school that is prohibitive to me.
As far as I could find, without the training certificate from a school, they won't let you test.
That said, if you have the time and money I agree, get the CDL, the more education the better.

 

[IsaLandr]

You are correct, elkhtr, Washington State does not offer Class A or B in non-CDL. Only the Class C license is offered in both CDL and non-CDL. If you need a Class A or Class B license, you're going to have to get a CDL. The Washington State DOL website is very helpful on this. While it indicates that you may not need a CDL per se, it also indicates that you do need a Class A or Class B license. Since those are only available in CDL, you have to get your CDL to stay legal. I will quote the relevant information below.

Per the Washington State DOL website (http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/cdlrequired.html):

[h=2]Types of vehicles that require a CDL[/h]You must have a commercial driver license (CDL) to drive any of the following vehicles:

• All single vehicles with a manufacturer’s weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
• All trailers with a manufacturer’s weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more, and a combined vehicles’ gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
• All vehicles designed to transport 16 or more persons (including the driver). This includes private and church buses.
• All school buses, regardless of size.
• All vehicles used to transport any material that requires hazardous material placarding or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR 73.

There is a handy flowchart on that page which can help a person visualize which class of license their vehicle requires. Please note the part about "All single vehicles with a manufacturer's weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more". Which is exactly what I said earlier. While the flowchart and other documentation indicates that you only need a Class A or B license, the only way to get those classes in WA is via CDL. Other states do offer these licenses in non-CDL.

The issue about required training in the state of Washington is a valid one. Class A licenses require 160 hours of formal training, Class B requires 48 hours, and Class C requires 36 hours. You have to provide a certificate from an authorized training center, or be eligible for one of the exemptions and provide the required proof, before you can obtain a CDL. Here's a link: http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/cdltraining.html

You can pay for and pass the related tests from the DOL to get the license at any time, but unless you turn in the certificate of completion, or have one of the exemptions against the training requirement, you will not be issued a license. Any such testing results are valid for one year from the date they were passed.

 

[IsaLandr]

My lawyer hid nothing from him, we disclosed the full GVWR, and that it was air brakes, licensed as a collector vehicle.
I think they were viewing us the same as the large motor homes.

"Collector Vehicle". This is the key to the way the question was framed, and to the answers you received. As I mentioned previously, there are several exemptions to the CDL requirements. One is collector or antique vehicles, which when registered in that category are severely restricted on what they can be used for, how often and how far they can be driven, and under what conditions they may operate. Any violation of those restrictions can result in fines and CDL requirements backdated to the first date of registration, which will get very expensive in a great big hurry. So technically, a formerly Class A or B vehicle carrying collector plates is exempt from CDL requirements, but you can't do a whole lot with it once you go that route.

If you want to actually be able to use the truck for anything besides parades, shows, and *very* occasional joyriding, you cannot use the collector registration. When you inform the officer that you are going to use the vehicle to carry any kind of cargo at all, to help friends move their furniture, or anything else outside the limitations of the collector restrictions, you will get a very different answer as to what is required to operate the vehicle.

For people in the Pacific NorthWest who want to drive these vehicles and don't need to use them to haul anything, and don't intend to drive them more than about once a month, the collector plates is the way to go. It exempts all of the licensing requirements. But if you want to use the truck in any capacity remotely resembling load carrying, you need commercial or normal registration and a Class A or B license.

Because we use it as our primary farm vehicle, and meet the requirements for same, we registered our M923 with a farm exemption, which also negates all of the CDL requirements. But, again, carries a number of restrictions that limit what we can do with the vehicle. However, it also includes the bonus that I don't have to put ugly license plates on our truck. One small sticker covers everything.

Another way to achieve CDL exempt is RV conversion, but there are other requirements to meet that exception, which I don't know enough about to speak intelligently.