Politics and The Hobby...

[devilman96]

Generally here we try to avoid politics in our discussions and historically SS as a whole has adopted the stance of lets keep the site about MV's and not about everything else going on which I whole heartedly agreed with for some time... However... At the same time looking around our hobby I wonder if we can continue to keep taking that stance or afford the luxury of walking the quite path of abstained silence around the forums where MV's are involved.

In the past several years we have seen a turn of the tides so to speak on military surplus; Government Liquation was the beginning of the trend. (say thank you to Bill Hilary, and Al Gore) Where some of us have been quite vocal about their existence, most of us have just accepted it and allowed the changes to take place or grumble amongst ourselves about the cost of the hobby going up... Which... Is some what acceptable being that all things in the world become more costly as time goes by. TO some of us whom are newer to the hobby this seemed to be an attractive ordeal as it has opened the surplus buyers market up to a much wider audience. Though I have always had a love for the left over green stuff one could find in the local surplus stores around town GL was ultimately what lead me into buying surplus machining equipment and then into vehicles and those vehicles are what lead me to SS. However the lasting affects of this change are becoming more and more apparent as we are seeing surplus dealer after surplus dealer fold across the country. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 14 different companies or sole proprietorships in the past 24 months whom have tossed in the towel, sold out, scrapped out, or been bought out... Its a sobering trend.

More recent changes in the surplus system have hit closer to home for most of us which evolves around classification changes after sales. Most know of the EUC requests now being sought after by GL, which ultimately comes from the DRMS. Where as most of it has been in regards to reclassify items like trailers and truck parts we have seen the confiscation of items sold to the public which range from 1960's manufactured computer consoles (a Timex watch is more of a threat) to tubes of 3M seam sealer which can commonly be purchased at any local Napa Auto Parts store. Eyes have started to open to just how ignorant our government has become and just how willing they are to throw out rationality, logic or reason to spend millions of dollars chasing after equipment and parts which have some how become branded as a possible terrorist threat to the US... Yes I know ignorance is nothing new but as a whole I feel it is being wheedled with a much larger sword these days.

Additionally we are seeing MV's being sold by the hundreds to scrapping outfits, perfectly good, whole running trucks being piled into low boy trainers in stacks of threes to be whacked into recyclable 18" pieces of "scrap iron". Scrap is much easier to dispose of, reguardless of cost or profit this seems to be the next phase of surplussing US equipment guaranteeing something as simple as a filing cabinet or common 6.2L diesel engine doesn't make it to Iran...

This turn of the tides is not directed at our hobby of course, but it is pulling us right along. Admittedly I am a dissident when it comes to the common view of our country but its that dissidence that makes me the patriot that I am... The war on terror, the politics of the day, the foreign policy and our thinking these days all tend to lean into the direction were sliding... I cant say I like it much... quite frankly im at a loss to understand why it is my freedom and liberty have to be sacrificed in order to have freedom and liberty... Leaving me with less freedom... and less liberty... is saving my freedom and liberty?

Our hobby today is finding itself caught in the crossfire, much of which revolves around paranoia, twisted truth and a lot of uneducated and misguided individuals. Where as we come here to talk about our vehicles amongst our peers we try and avoid political strife I feel that sticking our heads in the sand and continuing to say having intelligent political discussion as a collective group has no place amongst the hobby and Steel Soldiers is going to continue, if not speed up our perpetual slide into loosing our hobby as a whole. Were coming up on another election year and maybe this time we should start considering putting our collective minds towards looking after our future, for both the hobby, our children and our children's children. With out trying to play "my truck is better than your truck" on the topic of political candidates I think we need to have some forum and discussion on the subject because the attitude of ignorance is bliss isn't cutting it anymore.

Personally... I am noticing a growing trend in support for a candidate which I would recommend paying attention to whom is known as "Dr No" aka Congressman Ron Paul of Texas. What does he have to do with our hobby one might ask... Everything and nothing at all... but then again... What would you think of Clinton as president?... Yeah yeah yeah... I know.... their all the same... right? Eh im going to take a gander and say no... I think you would beg to differ here... He is prolly the only canadte in 80 years that has not made our founding fathers roll over in the grave! Google the guy and find out... http://video.google.com/videosearch?source=ig&hl=en&q=ron+paul&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv

I agree SS is about MV's, not politics... But in this day and age with so many things balancing on the edge disaster when it comes to elections and party control I think its incredibly irresponsible to keep sitting here complaining about a situation AFTER its happened (like EUC changes) when we should be discussing it BEFORE we arrive to such a mess..

 

[Blood_of_Tyrants]

Ron Paul doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. The best we can do is to try to elect someone who believes that the individual is sovereign and not subservient to the state, i.e. DO NOT under any circumstances vote for someone who promises "free" anything to anybody. So far, a certain female candidate has promised to spend an additional $784 BILLION of your tax money in order to create a socialist utopia and destroy the US.

Atlas Shrugged ought to be required reading for all college freshmen.

 

[kcimb]

Fred Thompson.

 

[lstmate]

Hope this is ok to post here

I know politics is a bad thing to try and discuss but incase some of you do not watch the G503 there has recently been a thread there that I think is worth watching if not getting involved in if you live in a state like Wis.

http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=101394


Moderators if this is inappropriate please feel free to delete.

Garry

 

[devilman96]

RE: Hope this is ok to post here

What is happening in WI is another reason for my posting and something I have gotton involved with about 2 weeks ago. Where as I do beleive the situation will be resolved and will pass... This is again why I say it is more productive to be proactive than re - active to politics.

 

[ken]

I have never missed a election since i turned 18. Even the small local bond stuff nobody seems to care about. I figured i couldn't complain if i didn't vote. But when i comes to voting for the presedent. I don't think we as americans have much say. Doesen't the electorial collage vote for the pres? Even though the popular vote has chosen one or the other the electorial collage isn't obligated to follow them. Haven't they casted thier vote aginst the popular vote in the past? No i'm not dragging up what happened in 2000. But who are these people? And why can't we elect them? Any other election my vote probally counts. If the voting machine records it correctly. I think we have a much better chance at getting something done by changing our congress. I can't bring myself to vote for a incumbent. No matter what the party. They have proven to me time and time again that i'm not in thier best intrest. Just lookup your congressmans voting record. It will suprise you!!

 

[amanco]

Another quick point to add to devilman96's initial address. Just like you can't expect a fish to live out of water, I don't believe that you can expect a our hobby of vehicles created by the government to be used by a government sponsored military to continue. That military's surplus, we as end result collectors, depend partly if not nearly wholly upon to survive and with out some discussion and collective action towards those who make the decisions concerning the surplus it may very well go away. I just think the key to a successful discussion is to stay with the facts and not some one's opinion. What are the facts here? Who (politicians) has said and done what?

 

[Blood_of_Tyrants]

I don't think we as americans have much say. Doesen't the electorial collage vote for the pres?

The electoral college is chosen by the side that receives the most votes in each state. If you don't think your vote counts, just go back to November 2000 when AL Gore tried to disqualify military absentee ballots in Florida and then tried to "count until he won" in hand selected counties in Florida. In the end, George Bush won the presidency by a little over 500 votes.

If not for that, we would have 8 years of Bill Clinton, followed by 8 years of Spotted Owl Gore, possibly followed by 8 years of the Hildebeast.

 

[readyman]

The framers of the Constitution didn't think they could trust the election to 'us' with a popular vote count, hence electoral college. Most states are 'winner takes all' (electoral votes). But there is only a $10,000 fine for not voting with the party in control of the states electoral college, so it's a political vote decision not 'popular vote' decision. So an electoral voters allegiance is to a party not to the popular vote result.

 

[Elwenil]

Interesting. I too have been watching the political BS go back and forth and have been wondering what this could mean for the MV collector. I haven't even really gotten into the MV hobby yet, other than owning my M715 for a short time, but I still dream of a Deuce or 5 ton and would like to eventually be able to get one. I'd hate to see the right to own one suddenly ripped away before I am able to purchase one. As far as the major candidates go, I doubt any of them even care about MVs. If they even touch the subject I'm sure it will be to do away with private MV ownership just because that is what they majority of the ignorant public wants to "fight terrorism". Remember in their mind there is no real need for surplus MVs and we have no use for them.

Personally I think a patriot behind the wheel of a MV will do more damage to a terrorist than some Taliban psycho getting his hands on US surplus wheel bearing grease. I'm sure we do surplus out things that could be used against us and I agree that that should be stopped but I do not think that stopping all surplus sales is the way to go. I could probably go as far as registration checks and so forth, something similar but not quite as bad as handgun sales if they really think MVs are a threat. I honestly think the whole thing is paranoid BS, myself. We are always going to be vulnerable. Our society is set up so that if we are free to move about our daily lives, so are the people who would harm us. Honestly, I would rather live my life free and take the chance that every time I step out my door that I may be killed by some lunatic than to have all my rights and freedoms taken away and live "safe".

I had a friend mention Ron Paul to me. I am interested in what he has to say. I don't agree with his stance on the war in Iraq, but a lot of what he says makes sense. He may not have a chance of winning, but I would rather vote for someone who makes more sense to me than just jumping on the bandwagon of the two most likely to win. I'd much rather vote for a loser with his head on straight than a winner that will descend our country into more chaos. At any rate, I am undecided but I have to say that I will be watching Ron Paul closely. I'm a bit tired of all out politicians listening to large corporations and not our citizens.

I think this discussion is warranted with what we seem to be facing in the future as a hobby. I hope it doesn't degrade into a "this guy is better and this is why" discussion. Lets try to keep it pertaining to how it effects MVs and our hobby and everyone try to keep a cool head. I know how these discussions can get, lol.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Good points Lanty. I've been kicking this around alot lately. Do I want to waste my vote on someone I believe in who folks say can't win or do I want to tow the line? At first I wasn't about to waste my vote but I'm having a change of heart here. I'm not going to compromise my view of the candidates or my view of what the founding fathers envisoned. I'm and independent and rightfully so because I'm an independent thinker. Problem with this is it keeps me out of the primarys. My biggest decision now is whether I should register republican and vote my heart or go dem and vote to avoid the biggest mistake this country could likely make. I need more soul searching.

 

[kcimb]

I'm still reading Devilman's post....

Edited by poster...

My mistake, I apologize.

 

[mangus580]

I'm still reading Devilman's post, but when you voted for W in 00/04 over Gore and Kerry, you didn't pick the best choice...you picked the slow road to heck, Kerry and gore were express lanes.

And how is this relevant to d-mans post?

C'mon guys... keep it on topic here, or it will ALL go....

 

[steelsoldiers]

And how is this relevant to d-mans post?

C'mon guys... keep it on topic here, or it will ALL go....

Yes, the title of the forum says it all, "Politics Related to the MV Hobby." I don't want to see any party or candidate bashing in here. There are plenty of Pro-whatever sites out there where you can bloviate to your heart's content about who's fault it is.

 

[DDoyle]

Guys, my take on the HMV hobby and politics - all politics as a matter of fact, is its a matter of who knows who.

This boils down to the personal relationship that each one of us has with our elected officials. All people - mechanics, politicians, pilots are basically the same. SS works the same way - if you are listening to the traffic broadcast on the radio and it says there is a delay due to a stalled car - you find a new route home. If on the other hand someone you know (say Kenny) calls you on the phone and says I've broken down, you go help.

If you know your elected officials, there is a better chance that they will respond to a phone call or letter from you than from "average" constituant. That is not evil doing on their part, this is simply human nature. And it goes up the food chain - your city councilman knows the mayor, the mayor probably knows the congressman, the congressman knows the governor, etc., etc. Your councilman does you a favor 'cause he knows you, that favor may be call the congressman to ask for help on a titling issue, or to ask him to call a US senator about surplus. Regardless of your political leanings - it would be in all of our best interests to get to know personally someone that is elected to office to represent you at ANY level.

Likewise, the public and political perception of this hobby is determined by each of our actions. Run over a bunch of cars with a tank, you make national news. Run through a school bus with a deuce, and you'll make national news too. So, my advice is don't do anything with your historic military vehicle that you wouldn't do in front of a LEO, the governor, or your insurance agent.

My .02,
David Doyle

 

[gimpyrobb]

So if someone were to act, how might they go about it. DD makes it sound like I could maybe call the city's mayor's office and see if I could set up a meeting with him. Do you think it would be as easy as that? I feel this is important enough to act on. My city is small enough that I might actually be able to have a "sit down".

 

[devilman96]

There is something to be said here about individual canadtes...

Most of us will agree to some extent that the democratic parties views does not reflect the majority of our members... Im not saying all... Im saying most. I have a democratic office here locally, its what I have for a party rep and whom I have to deal with. I get a lot of rolling of the eyes sometimes when I am there but they do listen! At least and I have developed a first name relationship with many in the office... Of course some know to RUN when I come in the door but hey... im a bit vocal what can I say. Reguardless of the party you currently have you can get things done so no one should hesitate to go to them... However your reach may become limited after that office pending the affiliation.

I am registered republican... I will vote republican... I feel the party best represents thing I hold to be dear such as firearms... Which in most cases is the only reason I vote for them. I would generally say that I feel the same about my truck and keeping it safe but as of the past 4-6 years obviously something is going seriously wrong here and were all starting to feel it.

I brought up Ron Paul before because there is very little I can find to argue with... I trust his track record and I fully believe what he says. ANY OTHER TIME I would say one is an idiot to believe a politician but anyone that knows the guys career would agree.

I also have to beg to differ on the snow balls chance... He has surpassed Mccain and is winning a vast majority of the straw polls being held as well as taking the debate polling by storm. his position has moved up from 8-9 to 3-4th on the republican ticket. If this seems incorrect to what your hearing stop watching Fox and MSNBC and do some reading. I admit that the major news outlets hate him... but there is little denying the pull he has created in the past 4 months. The last quarter gave him the funding to go the length of the race and his average donation received was 40$... Which should tell you his money is coming from people as he doesn't accept money from special interest groups, never has never will... Im sure he is the only one in the race on ether side that can say that. For me... "For the people" has found a calling for a change and hey... maybe I will not have to vote for the lesser of two evils for a change!!!

So where does this apply to our trucks? Its like this... the man is a constitutionalist... He believes the constitution is to be taken WORD FOR WORD... not played with and changed. He believes in small government, stopping immigration, removal of the IRS, monetary reform, ending the war, reversal of foreign policy and most importantly the right to an individuals freedom and liberty... Reguardless of party affiliation the guys message is something I've been saying out loud for the majority of my life, which is "this isn't right, and this is not how things were ever intended to be in the US"... How he is running on the republican ticket I don't get but I think they are relying on him as a trump card as he is sucking in independents and borderline democrats over to the GOP's side...

Hit up Google and so some reading... It's worth while... Thats all im saying...

 

[readyman]

Non-politically,
The Clinton administration downsized(with distain) the military, which should have done wonders for the availability of mil-surplus. Combined that with the fact that they had stock interest in the GL parent corp., must've been a win-win situation for them($) AND us(the hobby). But I don't think back then the raw matl's export market was so 'in demand'. China is probably droolin over the 18" demilled blocks of M35's steel comin thru, it's good stuff.

The Bush Administration is 'upgrading' the military, so more of the obsolete stuff is being liquidated. Why do they need all this hardware when the job can be done using more modern technology(just watch Weaponology on cable)

I guess we're bidding for our own stuff in an international market, where it's in demand.

DD
How do we convince the gov't we are the good guys? The gov't can't even be convinced the country of Turkey is one of the good guys, and not tick em off?

 

[devilman96]

He has a point about working with your local offices... Its boring as all get out but seeing more of us filter in and ask questions as well as pushing points like MV collection rather than "i want my truck" will help the hobby.

As far as good guys... man... im thinkin were all on the wrong side of their fence anymore!!!

 

[DDoyle]

DD
How do we convince the gov't we are the good guys?

Guess I wasn't clear enough - we aren't supposed to convince "the government" that "we" are good guys - just your city councilman, or mayor, or congressman that YOU are a good guy. Not by walking into an office with a list of demands, but by walking in with a concern. Before hand, its not a bad idea to learn something about them - and their interests - and find a common ground to begin from. Then, when someone else comes in and tries to convince them that MVs are bad and MV owners are threats - the politico thinks "Hmmm, I've been knowing ol' Joe for a while, and he's not a nut, but he's got some old army trucks" - he's more inclined to line up with you than with "them". Thus,you've convinced "the government" that "we" are good guys.

You want the councilman, mayor, senator, whatever for YOU. If you don't know any of these folks, try to meet them, ideally through a common acquaintance.

DD