Putting IP back in and Timing Refresher

[msgjd]

I drove it for 4 months without a fuel pump. Lucky? Maybe.
... Just crazy how all of a sudden this thing stops. You mentioned fuel plunger being in correct position.. How would it not be?

the muiltifuels can be started/driven without an operable in-tank pump if its run at least once a month and keeps its prime.. The most common symptom aside of a silent fuel tank when you flip the accessory switch, is a prolonged cranking time / hard start ..

yes it's crazy how sudden the failure happens.. I shut off a "perfectly-running for years" M109A3 one december day and come April when I went to wake it up from its winter nap it would not fire.. Had fuel to the IP, but nothing at injectors .. In my case it was the dreaded plunger button that decided to fall off.. Happened to the M62A2 once and also to a forest service M49A2C that I obtained at reasonable cost because their mechanic and potential bidders thought the IP was toast and expensive fix.. I had the truck running within an hour of getting it here and it's a strong sweet truck with its 1990s "brand new" driveline

Although I have pulled whole pumps on several diesels and rebuilt some, I have never needed to pull an entire multifuel IP, thus cannot help you much specifically to timing it to the marks.. wish i could .. However, what I do know is if you have pressure or fuel at the inlet and find there is nothing on the hi side, I suspect your plunger button fell off. Doesn't take much, by chance did you drop or otherwise jar the IP when you had it out, even if it fell only a few inches? IMO the little clip that holds the button is the Achilles of the entire IP

 

[Dasgog]

I could say that possibly, though of no memorable incident, that when I set the IP down it made have tipped over. Again nothing where I was like “NOOO What did I Do?!” But maybe enough for that plunger button to offset or whatever.
Well I don’t know if it’s my truck but I’m tellin’ you, you can’t do anything with that IP outside of the fuel lines or plunger bolt on the center unless you take it out. That stupid steering column just is ridiculous!
This plunger / button….. replaceable whilst IP in truck?

 

[msgjd]

there are a few excellent posts on here about it and the HH, it is how I learned about those troublesome buttons ... There is a specific procedure to removing the HH that has to be read and re-read to grasp an understanding before attempting to remove the HH without damaging things.. It can be done in-place on the engine but there it is not a handy procedure, but there is just enough access underneath the fender and above to do the job .. I would say 98% of us fix the button with the IP in-place, because as you learned, the alternative is harder.. There is a cheap little 3-prong clip that snaps over the round edge of the button .. The button is sorta like a watch or computer battery.. IP just tipping over on the bench could have done it, heck they pop off when someone is aggressive pulling the eng stop lever .. As someone on here once said, "slooooooooow!" .. And although I have had to fix the buttons alone, I really suggest you have an extra set of eyes for the button task, otherwise you will be back and forth 50 times between barring the engine and looking at the hard-to-see marks before you finally get the removal/reinstallation marks aligned on the HH body .. Have a good small LED flashlight, I also found a cellphone pic zoomed in gives a good view the marks. They are tiny and hard to see .. I also learned at my age to take pics of every step of the head removal so you see how it was at each stage of coming apart .. The HH can only safely come off and back on at just one small precise spot of the rotating shaft

 

[Dasgog]

Your not meaning I have to take the whole HH off so you? How would I possibly get the quill shaft back in when the IP is at an angle that makes it even more impossible. Ugh. I thought it was just take off the top center JH bolt and pull it out and put a new one in

 

[msgjd]

Your not meaning I have to take the whole HH off so you? How would I possibly get the quill shaft back in when the IP is at an angle that makes it even more impossible. Ugh. I thought it was just take off the top center JH bolt and pull it out and put a new one in

Only the HH (hydraulic head, the round body the lines to the injectors come from) has to come off to fix the button .. the rest of the IP stays in place on the engine .. You aren't messing with the quill .. The button and clip sits right up on top of everything .. There is a specific procedure, read it several times if need be.. It works. It doesn't have to make sense right now, it will make total sense when you are done doing it and have seen it for yourself... Think of it as a pencil whose eraser has popped off.. You are just popping the eraser back on the pencil .. I cannot improve on my answer or help you further on this subject.... You have plenty to read on here about the plunger and HH removal, direct from the experts .. I don't recall who made the posts, but they go back at least a few years, were lengthy, very informative. There is least one excellent step-by-step post on the subject , with pics .. search for HH , and it was either in the deuce section or "old" 5-ton's section

 

[Dasgog]

Well if my memory serves me at all, I know the engine needs to be timed right in order for the head to come out. I know TDC is 1 of 2 strokes so if I align harmonic balancer correctly, and if I see white notch on IP window and then Red tooth in HH then that is timed right. I then should be able to take off all steel lines and the 4 bolts holding in the HH. If timed tight, it should more or less pop out. From there I verify/replace and what not the plunger/button. It should then go back in easily, more or less.
I was going to try the pencil test first. If I take off the center bolt and put a pencil or what not there and crank it, if the plunger/button is ok it should rise and fall…. If not, plunger /button is bad.
I’m trying to find videos and I see some but they kinda go back and forth. But I think I get the gist. Still, before anything I am going to verify if air comes out other side of HH.

 

[Floridianson]

My point about the plunger position is that as it goes around to line up with the correct cylinder and up and down to make the pressure for the injector. The delivery valve has to open every time too. It takes 250 psi 400 psi to open and start the pressure out to get to cylinder /injector. Then the plunger still increases pressure enough to pop the injector at 3500psi for two hole injectors. Page 1-27 paragraph 1-23 of the TM9 is how the plunger works along with the delivery valve.
Sorry only got 2 hours of sleep last night and the night before so my head is not all in the game. Getting old stinks.

 

[Dasgog]

My point about the plunger position is that as it goes around to line up with the correct cylinder and up and down to make the pressure for the injector. The delivery valve has to open every time too. If I remember 350 psi 450 psi to open and let the pressure out to each cylinder /injector. Then the plunger still increases pressure enough to pop the injector at 3500psi for two hole injectors.
Sorry only got 2 hours of sleep last night and the night before so my head is not all in the game. Getting old stinks.

Well of what you are suggesting is my whole issue is not enough fuel "pressure" and the only way to resolve this is to replace the fuel pump, I am screwed. As I mentioned it has 40 gallons in it and the bed was lowered to 6" clearance so I would need to drain the tank and take out the tank to get to the pump.
I have no way to just move 40 gallons. It just is not in the cards.

 

[msgjd]

Well if my memory serves me at all, I know the engine needs to be timed right in order for the head to come out. I know TDC is 1 of 2 strokes so if I align harmonic balancer correctly, and if I see white notch on IP window and then Red tooth in HH then that is timed right. I then should be able to take off all steel lines and the 4 bolts holding in the HH. If timed tight, it should more or less pop out. From there I verify/replace and what not the plunger/button. It should then go back in easily, more or less.
I was going to try the pencil test first. If I take off the center bolt and put a pencil or what not there and crank it, if the plunger/button is ok it should rise and fall…. If not, plunger /button is bad.
I’m trying to find videos and I see some but they kinda go back and forth. But I think I get the gist. Still, before anything I am going to verify if air comes out other side of HH.

yes , but if I recall correctly, having the engine timing marks lined up only gets you within the ballpark of the HH removal marks, in some cases you might not see the marks in the HH with the engine marks in line.. You will have to bar the engine a hair one way or the other ever so slightly, thus the extra set of eyes .. it's not a hard job, just is a pain that takes some time and patience and understanding the very 1st time .. after that, it's still a pain but goes quicker now that you had done it and saw how it goes .. you have to go into it with the right attitude and open, non-distracted mind

 

[msgjd]

Well of what you are suggesting is my whole issue is not enough fuel "pressure" and the only way to resolve this is to replace the fuel pump, I am screwed. As I mentioned it has 40 gallons in it and the bed was lowered to 6" clearance so I would need to drain the tank and take out the tank to get to the pump.
I have no way to just move 40 gallons. It just is not in the cards.

a simple carter 24VDC in-line fuel pump can be used without removing the in-tank pump .. They are about 50 bucks and on fleapay or napa.. It will easily draw fuel past the in-tank, the in-tank is only a loose impeller with a huge amount of clearance around it.. The Carter in-line has more pressure than the in-tank and is a great inexpensive substitute .. .. Many of us have done it instead of replacing the expensive in-tank , ran one on my M62A2 wrecker for years, over the road with 50000# gross at times, no issue on the heaviest of 5-tons, thus piece of cake drawing fuel on your deuce.. As others have said, get some fuel pressure to your IP first, and then see whether or not you have fuel at the injectors.. step by step.

 

[Dasgog]

yes , but if I recall correctly, having the engine timing marks lined up only gets you within the ballpark of the HH removal marks, in some cases you might not see the marks in the HH with the engine marks in line.. You will have to bar the engine a hair one way or the other ever so slightly, thus the extra set of eyes

Alright, so not to confuse myself then.. As long as I see the red tooth as center as I can as well as white notch in window, that would be sufficient?

 

[Floridianson]

Yea sorry myself when I had Deuces also had cranes and could easy lift off bed.
When the HB is on correct mark TDC and advanced window mark is on pointer the Head red / scrib should be approximately one tooth off to the rear of engine. We only remove Head when the red /scrib tooth is on Head pointer. Yes if you had fuel coming out the over flow valve on side of head that should have been enough to prime booster and to supply enough fuel to fire off.

 

[msgjd]

Alright, so not to confuse myself then.. As long as I see the red tooth as center as I can as well as white notch in window, that would be sufficient?

yes, however, in the HH instructions posting(s) I mentioned , you have to make sure the IP (and HH) is in register with the engine before you pop the HH off.. The red mark can be close to being in the center but in reality 180* off to the engine timing, some issue like that .. Something that it might come out in that position but you will not get it back in.. There was a warning about it in that/those posts and how to check for it before you pop the head, basically, making sure the red mark is exactly where it needs to be and not in a misleading position... again, find that post or two .. It is all in there .. they were the experts

 

[Dasgog]

Man I feel I am gonna have better luck with this if I just take the IP off and then worry about the timing when I put the IP back in, instead of wondering if I am the correct stroke while it is all in there.
The engine is currently at the correct harmonic notch, and I see the white tooth on IP EXACT mark and the red tooth is 1 off center. Now I am afraid that is not the correct "everything matching perfectly" .
I may just take it all out and do it.

The IP is on that spring action... If 1 tooth off means timed right, how do I align red tooth dead center to take out? At least taking pump out I can control all that

 

[Dasgog]

Alright so, I will do my best to put these tributaries of data into a step by step procedure. Do not hit your forehead with your hand if I am simply not grasping it. Mind you, I will be doing the 2 tests first; I wanna verify air pressure coming OUT of the HH on the overflow assembly ( If I get pressure what that mean, if I don't whats that mean (in regards to next step)) and then second I wanna do the pencil test, take off center bolt and start it and see ib it goes up and down. If it goes up and down I assume the button assembly is actually ok?

1.) Harmonic Balancer + White Tooth on IP (exact on notch) + Red Tooth on HH (1 notch off).
2.) Remove all steel lines plus the 4 bolts holding down the HH
3.) Gently pull out HH
4.) Work on HH
5.) Center the Red Tooth to where it would be directly on the Notch (not the tooth off) so that it will fit back in.
6.) Gently put back in the HH
7.) Reconnect steel lines + 4 bolts holding HH down.
8.) Start the truck and drive away.

 

[cattlerepairman]

8.) Start the truck and drive away.

We are very much hoping for that!!

 

[Dasgog]

As long as 1-7 are correct.

 

[rustystud]

If you had someone to help by engaging the starter, you could determine if you indeed do have flow through the high side. Apply air to that port I showed you in the picture, and with the injector lines off you will feel a pulse of air (at the steel line) every time the injection pump rotates.
What I was trying to explain about the pump was the plunger when it is at the top of it's bore will not flow air. It is physically blocking the ports. When it is below the intake ports, air will flow through (as long as the lines are off at the injectors) . So if your working alone and cannot rotate the engine with the starter you might or might not have flow through the high pressure side depending on where the plunger stopped last. That is what I was trying to tell you.
So check this first and see if there is a reason to remove the Hydraulic Head. If there is another reason you will be glad you checked first before tearing down the pump.

 

[Dasgog]

If you had someone to help by engaging the starter, you could determine if you indeed do have flow through the high side. Apply air to that port I showed you in the picture, and with the injector lines off you will feel a pulse of air (at the steel line) every time the injection pump rotates.
What I was trying to explain about the pump was the plunger when it is at the top of it's bore will not flow air. It is physically blocking the ports. When it is below the intake ports, air will flow through (as long as the lines are off at the injectors) . So if your working alone and cannot rotate the engine with the starter you might or might not have flow through the high pressure side depending on where the plunger stopped last. That is what I was trying to tell you.
So check this first and see if there is a reason to remove the Hydraulic Head. If there is another reason you will be glad you checked first before tearing down the pump.

I guess what confuses me is, what does air pressure or no air pressure mean? I have yet to check for 2 or so days cause of work but I did make an adapter that connects my air compressor air to the fuel line going in the HH. When I push air in there, with engine off, is when I can see where air comes out (where steel lines go or the low pressure side). If the plunger is in the position where it blocks fuel, I mean I’ve cranked that beast 30 times so I mean if it was capable of moving it would have. Yeah it ducks I have no one to help me and I have a Cisco networking electrical brain not a mechanical engine brain.

 

[Dasgog]

I feel like I have over complicated this. Every response has been helpful and I am grateful but I am such a literal person and people have different methods etc and so I just get so into my head.
I am just gonna make sure it's timed, verify I have air flow coming out or if any flow at all, verify the plunger is indeed stuck or not working and go from there.