Putting IP back in and Timing Refresher

[cattlerepairman]

Dasgog: I am an expert computer networking and CISCO troubleshooter
Deuce: "Watch this!" Proceeds to show illogically positioned red coloured tooth on hydraulic head and refuses to start. Presents a digital interface that is not compatible with...basically anything, other than a military device that ceased to exist in 1990.

 

[Dasgog]

Hey now!
I took pictures of everything before I took off. That tooth is, when looking at it, 1 tooth off to the right!!! But I’ll put some sort of finale together and talk to it H.A.L style.

 

[Dasgog]

Alright, step one. I HAVE air going in IP HH and air pressure coming out the low pressure “left side” of the HH. So it’s not blocked. Being I have air flow, what does this help us with for the next step?

 

[Dasgog]

Ugh. Alright so I did the pencil trick. Old lady Linda next door had to push the button while I looked.
that pencil goes up and down like a beautifully buttered whatever.
I have to say, the button is good?

 

[Dasgog]

Ugh. Alright so I did the pencil trick. Old lady Linda next door had to push the button while I looked.
that pencil goes up and down like a beautifully buttered whatever.
I have to say, the button is good?

Also, is this correct?
Carter In-Line Universal Electric Fuel Pump Automotive Replacement 24V (P4603HD)

Carter In-Line Universal Electric Fuel Pump Automotive Replacement 24V (P4603HD)

https://a.co/d/42b1x3Z

 

[williamh]

 

[williamh]

View attachment 896417

If you timing marks line up you should be good. To verify you have fuel by using the air pressure on the fuel tank to push fuel up to the ip, open the air bleeds on the top of the fuel filters on the side of the motor until straight fuel comes out than bleed up to the ip , if you have fuel up to there and don’t get fuel from out of the injection lines , make sure the fuel shutoff plunger isn’t incorrectly assembled or o- rings haven’t come loose and plugged the fuel inlet to the ip.

 

[Dasgog]

If you timing marks line up you should be good. To verify you have fuel by using the air pressure on the fuel tank to push fuel up to the ip, open the air bleeds on the top of the fuel filters on the side of the motor until straight fuel comes out than bleed up to the ip , if you have fuel up to there and don’t get fuel from out of the injection lines , make sure the fuel shutoff plunger isn’t incorrectly assembled or o- rings haven’t come loose and plugged the fuel inlet to the ip.

Correct.

Last year I took out the IP and the HH. I “rebuilt” both and out all new O Rings on HH as well as where the fuel shut off connects, the smaller O Rings etc. I did this then because I was getting fuel in my oil. This more recent event was because I had fuel leaking out of bottom of Booster Pump.
I took off IP and ONLY touched the booster pump and out the new gasket in as well as re-thread a bolt for it; never touched the HH or the Shit Off etc, aside from take off side to see red tooth.
Putting back in, I put the balancer on correct notch, verified my correct stroke on the rockers, had white mark in IP window SPOT on and the red tooth was one to the right. All looked spot on.
Today I verified the plunger/button is functional as I visibly saw it raise and lower, as well as raise and lower a pencil. With my air pressure I have verified good flow of fuel going INTO the IP through the HH as well as coming out of the low pressure / return line. So fuel is entering and leaving the Hydraulic Head. BUT nothing, neither fuel nor air, is coming out of any of the 6 holes/sockets where the fuel lines go. So, something is #1 blocking fuel or #2 I don’t have pressure from the tank to PUSH the fuel. Yes I pushed with air pressure but maybe it needs a higher volume and consistency.
Now at this stage because I saw it function, I have to believe the plunger/button are fine.
I thought maybe the shit off was stuck; I took off the side and manually pushed the lever back and forth and it moves freely with the correct spring return, so I truly believe it is not the shut off.
Best I can without taking the IP off, I believe the shutoff connector going into the head is fine as well, I rebuilt all that last year.
EVERYTHING worked until I took it off.

Unless I am not as advanced in thinking as the rest of you, and verifying fuel going IN and OUT via air pressure, I am believeinf it only worked earlier without a fuel pump cause the lines were already air tight and full of fuel when it went out. By taking it all apart, and believe me, all fuel from the lines emptied, I have to believe that regardless of my pushing air to verify flow, there simply is not enough consistent fuel and pressure to fire up.
I had my neighbor crank it while I watched everything else and it all is functioning, just not starting. I’m thinking simply the booster pump isn’t strong enough to suck fuel from a dry situation, or even if as mentioned there is air in there.

So again unless I am missing it; I am thinking my trouble is due to NO working fuel pump and I was only lucky before cause the fuel was already in the lines so the booster didn’t have to work as hard.

1.) IP/Head/Engine timed correctly and TDC verified.
2.) Battery/Starter sound strong and responsive.
3.) All new fuel lines and nice and tight, no air leakage.
4.) Plunger/Button visibly rising and lowering as I crank motor.
5.) With air pressure on tank, good flow (not strong by any means but enough to verify flow throughout) entering HH and exiting return line, also verified air flow.
6.) When I had the center bolt off as I was watching plunger rise and lower, and I pushed air, I also had release there too.
7.) Everything is perfect, but NOTHING comes out / through the 6 slots where steel lines connect.
It has to be so simple, simple like not enough fuel pressure .
Am I wrong? Cause after this many days I am losing my capacity to have a care.

 

[rustystud]

OK. The whole thing with the air now proves you should have flow through the injection pump.
What does that mean ? Well it means since you had it running before you "fixed" the booster pump, you basically did something wrong in rebuilding it. There are several little washers and springs and such that need to go together correctly. It has a "oneway" check valve in there that you probably put in backwards.
Just to be sure, I would remove the fuel line going into the booster pump and see if you can get fuel to flow to there. If you can then you need to re-rebuild the booster pump.

 

[Dasgog]

OK. The whole thing with the air now proves you should have flow through the injection pump.
What does that mean ? Well it means since you had it running before you "fixed" the booster pump, you basically did something wrong in rebuilding it. There are several little washers and springs and such that need to go together correctly. It has a "oneway" check valve in there that you probably put in backwards.
Just to be sure, I would remove the fuel line going into the booster pump and see if you can get fuel to flow to there. If you can then you need to re-rebuild the booster pump.

i can check this for sure, but I rebuilt it last year and it’s been driving…. This last time all I did was put the new gasket in… I did not tear down the booster pump. Well when I pushed fuel from the tank to the IN of the Hydraulic Head, and got fluid, that means that there is flow through the booster pump… I should not have had flow??

well this sucks I did not mess with it aside from gasket where it in itself connects to the IP, I didn’t undo the metal to metal plate where the gear is at and the little gear on the end with the Jesus flip that goes into the IP was fine.

I was really hoping you were gonna say since I have flow through the HH, I have flow from rank going INTO the HH, which goes through 2 filters, in and out of booster pump, you’d say it was probably a fuel pressure issue due to not having a fuel pump.
to hell with it then, I’ll take it all apart and do it all again.

 

[Dasgog]

Well aside from it being a Carter and a 24V and a 45-60 PSI, I have no idea if it’s correct but am buying it anyway to have it tomorrow.
Would it be recommended to have it near tank pushing or near engine pulling diesel?

 

[cattlerepairman]

I think most members put it on top of the tank. The regular in-tank pump only pushes fuel at about 9-10 psi (I know because I have a gauge there). The booster pump boosts to like 75 psi or so.

You should be fine leaving everything inside the tank alone and pull fuel through the disabled in-tank pump. It will act as a screen for your new in line pump. A couple of fittings and some fuel hose and you should be in business.

Here is a thread: https://www.steelsoldiers.com/threads/24v-inline-fuel-pump.61149/page-2

 

[Dasgog]

Well my final test I am gonna do before deciding it is the HH just locked up and frozen is to verify not just air or pushed fuel through the booster pump but to disconnect the OUT of the Booster Pump and crank it, see if it pushes through fuel. If it does not, then that booster was put in wrong as you said. If I get a good flow through it, well now, it's gotta be the HH and that's that.
As far as that link of the fuel pumps, I see 2-3 different ones mentioned and pictures but no definitive one that I would use. So, more research on that and re-read the treads again.

 

[msgjd]

Well aside from it being a Carter and a 24V and a 45-60 PSI, I have no idea if it’s correct but am buying it anyway to have it tomorrow.
Would it be recommended to have it near tank pushing or near engine pulling diesel?

any that I have installed went between the tank and the filters, put it as close to the tank as possible.. you should always try to push fuel, which assists in priming filters and the rest of the system .. also, the closer to your fuel source, the less work a pump has to do to draw the fuel .. it will also help troubleshoot for leaks, instead of fighting to find where air may be sucking in from

 

[Dasgog]

Verified Hydraulic Head works as I get air flow and fuel flow when I push it through. I did pencil test so I know the plunger/button works.
Verified Booster Pump is spinning cause I disconnected the “out” and as I crank it it spits fuel out.
Verified timing.
Flushed system out so I have a nice flow of fuel.

Why isn’t it starting?

 

[Dasgog]

Really the only last 2 things it could be are;

1.) Let’s say I timed everything right, except it was not TDC. Yes or No, even if it ran like a PoS, WOULD it run? If it would NOT run at all being I was not TDC the. I’ll look into that. If it WILL run, but crappy, I’ll look into that, later.
2.) I need to verify the gear on the HH is not freely spinning or that it isn’t locked in OFF position or that the nub or nib or whatever it is didn’t fall off and it’s staying in perpetual FUEL SHUT OFF mode. As I said I only ever touched that last year when I rebuilt it, and worked fine.
It’s 50+ year old mechanical technology. I mean, WTF? Am I right?

 

[rustystud]

So you do have fuel flow through the injection pump now ? Good. That takes care of the fuel supply issue.
Now we need to look at the timing part. Diesel engines are really fussy about proper timing unlike gasoline engines which can operate on a wide range of timing.
So first off let's make sure the engine is at TDC (Top Dead Center) on the number 1 cylinder.
To make things easier I would just remove the front valve cover so can actually see the valves operate.
Rotate the crank to the proper timing mark (there are plenty of diagrams here on Steel Soldier) . You can easily rotate the engine by putting the transmission in gear and putting the Transfer-case in Neutral. Then using a pry bar, pry the driveline stub shaft around.
Once you get the crank in proper alignment with the timing marks, check the valves on number 1 cylinder making sure that both valves are fully closed. You should now be able to see that "red mark" on the injection pump. If the red mark is not where it is suppose to be then you must remove the pump assembly and reinstall it.

 

[Dasgog]

So you do have fuel flow through the injection pump now ? Good. That takes care of the fuel supply issue.
Now we need to look at the timing part. Diesel engines are really fussy about proper timing unlike gasoline engines which can operate on a wide range of timing.
So first off let's make sure the engine is at TDC (Top Dead Center) on the number 1 cylinder.
To make things easier I would just remove the front valve cover so can actually see the valves operate.
Rotate the crank to the proper timing mark (there are plenty of diagrams here on Steel Soldier) . You can easily rotate the engine by putting the transmission in gear and putting the Transfer-case in Neutral. Then using a pry bar, pry the driveline stub shaft around.
Once you get the crank in proper alignment with the timing marks, check the valves on number 1 cylinder making sure that both valves are fully closed. You should now be able to see that "red mark" on the injection pump. If the red mark is not where it is suppose to be then you must remove the pump assembly and reinstall it.

Roger that. I believe TDC would be where the 2 front rockers (By radiator) would be able to wobble only so slightly where as not TDC they will both be tight and unmovable? That has been my understanding?
Also it, if I set it and the 2 front are unmovable, I just do 1 more stroke as it is only 2 stroke?


Thank you. I’m hoping today I get off at 330 and can do this. I’ll keep toynuodated

 

[rustystud]

Roger that. I believe TDC would be where the 2 front rockers (By radiator) would be able to wobble only so slightly where as not TDC they will both be tight and unmovable? That has been my understanding?
Also it, if I set it and the 2 front are unmovable, I just do 1 more stroke as it is only 2 stroke?


Thank you. I’m hoping today I get off at 330 and can do this. I’ll keep toynuodated

First off the Deuce is a 4 stroke engine not a 2 stroke.
Now about the valves. What I would do if you have an extra pair of eyes is to look at the valves. First the "exhaust valve" will open than the "intake valve" will open. When it (the intake valve) is fully closed your almost at Top Dead Center. That is when you set the mark on the crankshaft.
If your doing this by yourself then when the intake valve is fully closed (slight movement of rocker will tell that) continue to rotate the crank until the marks line up.

 

[Dasgog]

First off the Deuce is a 4 stroke engine not a 2 stroke.
Now about the valves. What I would do if you have an extra pair of eyes is to look at the valves. First the "exhaust valve" will open than the "intake valve" will open. When it (the intake valve) is fully closed your almost at Top Dead Center. That is when you set the mark on the crankshaft.
If your doing this by yourself then when the intake valve is fully closed (slight movement of rocker will tell that) continue to rotate the crank until the marks line up.

So 4 stroke meaning it will be 1 of 4 rotations where I need to find the correct TDC?