Question about torsion bars

[dgrev]

G'day John

"Delightfully British" huh? Never seen it put that way before, or as politely.....

Technically, it is oh so logical, but practicality?

But why were they suddenly so enamored of a universal TB I wonder, especially one that has to be maintained?
I have not heard of any other TB installation that requires periodic maintenance, let alone aggressive greasing.

Regards
Doug

We believe grease is cheap whereas steel is expensive so we grease everything often. Road duty is not hard on the driveline. Rough terrain is. So asking these machines to traverse humps which flex the T.B's to their max is what causes the damage. Something has to give and these T.B's can be upwards of 50 years in service.

I don't know about 3x number of parts but let's say the FV432 is 'delightfully British' and has several 'elegant' engineering solutions on-board. (The designers of the power-pack took inspiration from Sir Alec Issigonis of Mini car fame and crammed a lot into a small space. The Rolls-Royce K60 diesel has 6 cylinders and 12 pistons with 2 crankshafts... )

The T.B's are "settable" so they can allow for weight variations on the whole range of the FV430 family thus using the same bars, for the same side, for the whole range. You need the correct setting gauge for the seperate vehicles and in some cases there are varaitions along the stations to allow for localised weight such as the crane on the 434 or the generators on the radio relay variant.

I'm John.

 

[Foxtrot Oscar]

Doug,
TB's are expensive to make (Splines, heat treatment, lathework etc.), whereas setting gauges are cheap. (Just a piece of plate steel with a couple of grooves and some engraving).
So make just two types (LH & RH) and make lots of them but make them 'adjustable' for different weight applications. Economy of scale...
The Brits expected to make many, many of these APC's...

The NATO spec produced the M113 and the FV432. The British Army procured the FV432. The rest of the western world and allied forces chose the M113. So, not so many British TB's (compared to US TB's) were made in the end.

The Brits feel that they invented the Grease Nipple (Zerk - US) so they put them everywhere they can I reckon.

 

[dgrev]

John

Somewhere "out there" (on the web) is the account of the Aussie trials of the M113 against the FV-432 - both were initial production petrol engined versions.

Apparently, the M113 crews could do their after use maintenance, sit down, cook dinner and clean up and then relax in the same time that the FV-432 crew took just to do
their maintenance.
It got to the point that it became a morale issue for the FV-432 crews!

Then throw in the fact that in the tropical trials the FV-432s would bog, yet the 113s could drive through the same stuff, around the bogged 432, reverse
up and then pull the 432s out of the bog. Weight would appear to have been the problem, as IIRC the 432 doesn't have a bad power to weight ratio, but
is mostly the same size and track footprint as the 113.

So impressed was Oz, that we bought the diesel 113 without even trialing it - apparently. Which is rather hard to believe.

The Yanks didn't get the 113 perfect, take the oil filled road wheel hubs as an example, they eventually gave
up and converted them to grease. Likewise the pivot steers, manually operated disc brakes on an 8 ton and up
vehicle?
What were they thinking?
No NBC facility either.
But the power operated ramp, in my opinion, was brilliantly simple and reliable. When you see the floor plates out
of a 113 and you stand there and look at the design, they really did ask a lot from not much, especially that
cable and pulley set up. But it worked and held together.

One of the strangest locations I have seen for a grease nipple is on the water pump of the Rolls "B" series engines. I have never seen
another engine type that needed to have its water pump greased!

Regards
Doug

 

[Foxtrot Oscar]

Yes Doug, I concur with all of your observations.
The weight discrepancy related to Armoured Steel V Aluminium. Hence the 113 can swim. The 432 floats like a stone. As I mentioned earlier, we have one of each at the museum. One is precious (113) as it was used by our army, the other is sacrificial (432). We can't actually own the 113 due to the End-User embargo thingy from USA. It's officially on-loan and remains property of the NZ Government.
Grease-able water pumps are a thing of the past but were common pre-WWII and for some applications after too.
Regards,
J.

 

[L1A1]

Were the torsion bars painted or left unpainted? Mine appear to be un painted but they are also unwrapped as well. Figure when the time comes I would like to paint them & wrap them in order to protect them.

My contribution to the water pump grease nipple convo is this: One of my M37s had a unique grease cup on sticking up it's water pump that when doing the schedule maintenace & lubing everything, you would give that "cup" a quarter turn to lube the bearings inside the water pump.

Matt

 

[dgrev]

Matt I think it is very odd that your torsion bars are neither painted or wrapped. What you are describing is a device that is an alternative to the grease nipple. You filled the cups and then could do a grease job without the need for a grease gun. However, they are large and vulnerable, so not what you want on the undersides of a vehicle. Regards Doug

 

[L1A1]

Matt I think it is very odd that your torsion bars are neither painted or wrapped. What you are describing is a device that is an alternative to the grease nipple. You filled the cups and then could do a grease job without the need for a grease gun. However, they are large and vulnerable, so not what you want on the undersides of a vehicle. Regards Doug

Yes that was on the water pump of my Dodge's T-245 6 cylinder engine. Grease nipples were found underneath the M37.
Matt

 

[oboyjohn]

Hello dgrev. I see you are now on this site. Welcome from the great white north.!

John from Montreal.

 

[Foxtrot Oscar]

Mine appear to be un painted but they are also unwrapped as well.

Same here.

 

[poof]

having flash back memories reading you guys posts..here... i drove m113 and 577 back as an FO in germany.. most fantastic vehicle .. can remember having to thread the tow cable through ramp if cable broke and wright in white chalk. " FREE FALL" accross the back.. I drove the **** out of my tracks.. DX 3 of them for miles. 5K was DX as I recall.. 2 m113s and 1 m577. the 577 was a 1963 as i recall and had the oil filled road wheels with glass inspection/ level look.. broke tortion bars 2 times.. the old m577 was a lemon from the go.. when we were on an ALERT. (I was in FIST). we drove free wheel as a 4 track group. the 577 was brigade vehicle.. was dead lined 11 months a year and never made to an LDA... we or I would tow bar that thing all over germany to where it needed to be.. flippen fluppen thing.. any way.. we got a rail head bunch of brandy new M577a2. in and us drivers got turned loose and got to pick the one we wanted...was a great day. got my new one off and pushed that old tow bar junky on the train. I drove 8 months a year and lived in an m113. free wheeling all over Germany from Detmold to Fulda gap..swam them, forded, hotrodded them took up hills so steep I had to stand on my tiptoes to see the ground below. operated with IR on and lights out in the forest woods wide open . Filled one with water after ford entry with out a trim vain.( followed the heard, forgot I snapped mine off the day befor, then it was to late ),I even got hit by an M88 blade in convoy. peeled a 2 inch strip off entire legnth of vehicle.. we answered to no one.. almost no one.. .. grease zirk. I have one on my m37 waterpump..
well rant off. thanks for the memorie lane.
J.P...

 

[dgrev]

Hello John

Greetings from the drought in central Oz. Was 40 deg C yesterday, not fun when it goes past 40.

Regards
Doug

Hello dgrev. I see you are now on this site. Welcome from the great white north.!

John from Montreal.