Right and wrong way to start a deuce

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

... And EXACTLY how much AIR PRESSURE do you have when you do this


safety - - - Safety - - - SAFETY - - -

SETOYOTA...
I had noted the RAZZ.... Had you noticed the OVERKILL on the DRAMA, too

We now return you to the original topic of this thread.
Your Thread Hijackers humbly repent.

 

[DeuceDad]

Ok guys, I need a sanity check here. I have read the TM, the little operator manual cartoons and this thread and I have seen a lot of input that does not exactly line up with the published guides. Here is how I start my deuce:
1. Be sure stop switch is pushed in
2. Switch over the accessory switch, let it buzz for about 20 to 30 sec.
3. Push starter switch (but never for more than 5 to 10 sec., never pushing any pedal in and never pulling out any throttle cable)
4. After I do this about three to four times she will fire up (at this point I give her a little pedal to get her juices flowing, then I let her idle until she reaches 120 degrees and air pressure has built up, then I move out. She normally idles at 700 rpms)

After driving her, I always let her idle for 5 minutes to allow the turbo to cool before shutting her down and draining the air out of the tanks.

Am I missing something here? Should I be giving her some pedal while attempting to start her? The operator's manual says not to, to avoid creating a hydrostatic condition of access fuel in the cylinders. I let her buzz a little before pushing the start button, thinking this provides the fuel pump time to get the fuel moving through the system, am I wrong in doing this? She is parked on a slight incline with the engine uphill, maybe this causes the fuel to drain back into the system a little and that is why she does not fire up right away, but I don't think this is an issue. If it is not damaging I can try to give her a little pedal next time to see if she fires up faster.

Thanks.

 

[rlwm211]

You should do a hydrostatic test when you first start up.

Pull the engine stop all the way out.
Turn on the power and crank for a couple of seconds to be sure you
have not got a combustion chamber full of uncompressable liquid.
If it turns over fine stop as you are.

Push the stop engine all the way in, pull out the throttle enough to idle at 800 rpm or so (on mine it is 8 clicks...it varies truck to truck) Turn on power if you shut it off and crank.

When it starts let it idle until the oil pressure comes up.
Once the oil pressure is up, adjust idle to around 1000-1100 and
allow to run for about 5 minutes or more depending on the weather
to warm the engine and oil and also to build air.

You have shut down figured out fine.

RL​

 

[Flyingvan911]

I give my deuce a little gas in the winter along with a squirt of starting fluid to get it to start. In the warmer weather (above 40 degrees) it doesn't take any pedal and starts on it's own within a few turns. When it's cold, I press the pedal down just enough to get it to fire. I hold the pedal down slightly if it is idling rough to get the cylinders to warm up a little.

I think most people at one time or another have cranked their deuce for a little while (on and off) when it wouldn't start. I haven't heard of anyone causing a hydrolock. I don't think it squirts enough fuel in to the cylinders to add up very quickly. I may be wrong but this is what I've observed.

And if I am wrong, someone please tell me/us.

 

[rlwm211]

The check for a hydrostatic lock os not for fuel alone.

Coolant can gather in a cylinder and if the others fire, it will break things quickly if the engine starts.

That is why you do a hydrostatic test on a cold start.

I use the throttle cable, no ether and the manifold heater in cold weather with great success. My deuce has started in this manner at -7 or more below degrees many times.

I use the throttle cable to set the idle to prevent revving the engine any more than is absolutely necessary to allow the oil to get into the galleys and all through the engine with the engine running at as low an rpm as possible.

Check out the PS article "The MultiFuel Operator" on WWW.jatonkam35s.com in the M35 technical manuals download page and it will explain everything I have said, probably better than I have.

RL

 

[littlebob]

Some of us have had to modify our starting procedure a little. These trucks are old and some will start better than others. A compression ignition diesel needs all of the pressure to make the heat required to start and a fine mist from
mist from the injectors to start quickly. When I first got mine it would start and idle much easier. I need to check my filters and
compression sometime in the near future.

 

[mobileauto2000]

Question
I follow the TM starting procedures except if i let it idle in my drive way for 5 min i have a neighbor that would call the city and complain. so what i do is idle until the air come up then baby it down the street. two blocks down i will start to load the engine but lightly. by the time i reach the main street the turbo is is warmed up and ready to go. coming home its a little easier. when i turn off the main street i keep my foot out of the throttle so the turbo dose not get all spool up and hot when i get into the driveway i let it idle about 2 min more. i would like to take the full 5 min at both ends but i don't want a mad neighbor. and the gal that enforces our muni codes is a power crazed moron that i don't want to deal with. any tips on how to improve my comings and goings would be appreciated.

 

[DeuceDad]

Hi Mobil.... one solution is to become the neighborhood association president like I did, now no problems.

 

[DeuceDad]

Hi Rlwm211,

I read the guide at the website (http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/PSMultifuelOperator.pdf) and have a question, I do not have a fuel shut off switch on my dash as shown on page 9, box #2. My deuce is a '71, should it have one there or could it be located elsewhere? I have a throttle cable, stop cable and accessory switch there. I will double check the other TMs at his website and the ones I have to see if I am missing something.

Thanks.

 

[Maverick1701]

sacrificing a goat in the name of the deuce gods does not make the deuce start...this would be the wrong way

 

[leroygreen]

DeuceDad, that stop cable should be your fuel shut off at the ip. Mine sounds like yours with the accessory switch turning on the lift pump.

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

sacrificing a goat in the name of the deuce gods does not make the deuce start...this would be the wrong way

Would an "Old Goat" work better than a traditional goat

 

[stumps]

Hi Rlwm211,

I read the guide at the website (http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/PSMultifuelOperator.pdf) and have a question, I do not have a fuel shut off switch on my dash as shown on page 9, box #2. My deuce is a '71, should it have one there or could it be located elsewhere? I have a throttle cable, stop cable and accessory switch there. I will double check the other TMs at his website and the ones I have to see if I am missing something.

Thanks.

That magazine is pretty old. On a '71 deuce, there will be an accessory switch with a hooked thingy extending from the knob, and a choke type pull cable usually labeled FUEL.

Pull the FUEL cable out all the way... about 1 inch... and don't get too aggressive or it will break... and turn the accessory switch fully clockwise (ON). The little hooked thingy will come up against the FUEL cable's rod (and will hold the fuel cable in the OFF position). After a second or two, push the red button, which will crank the engine. If it cranks OK, turn the accessory switch OFF, and push the FUEL cable's rod all the way to the panel. Turn the accessory switch ON, and push the red button for a couple of seconds. It should start right away. If it doesn't, try again.

On some deuces, a small amount of throttle helps starting. You can achieve that by pulling out the PTO cable and bringing up the idle a couple of clicks.

Once the engine starts, make sure that it is kept down below 850 RPM until the oil pressure comes up. The deuce will be running without pressurized oil in the bearings for 15-20 seconds after start up... during this time is not a good time to race your engine! After the oil pressure is up (30 seconds, or so), you can bring the idle up to 1000 RPM to help warm up, and to more quickly bring the air pressure up to normal.

One thing, do not start driving until you have full air pressure (the buzzer goes off). The deuce brakes are pretty hard even with air assist... without air assist, the pedal is like stepping on a brick, and will not stop the truck without great effort.

-Chuck

OBTW, is it really necessary for me to say that you shouldn't touch the start button unless the transmission is in neutral, and the clutch pedal is depressed?

 

[dittle]

Once the engine starts, make sure that it is kept down below 850 RPM until the oil pressure comes up. The deuce will be running without pressurized oil in the bearings for 15-20 seconds after start up... during this time is not a good time to race your engine! After the oil pressure is up (30 seconds, or so), you can bring the idle up to 1000 RPM to help warm up, and to more quickly bring the air pressure up to normal.

15 - 20 seconds for full engine pressurization???? Mine is popping up at around 5 - 8 seconds depending on outside temps with stock filters. I would be concerned if mine took that long to pressurize.

 

[rlwm211]

It varies as to how long oil pressure rises. The engine design is for the oil to drain to the sump when you shut down including the filters. When you start up, even once the gauge shows pressure it will take a few more seconds for absolutely everything to get lubed up nicely.

The reason the original design was for the oil to drain to the sump is that the military used an Arctic winterization kit that heated the oil in the pan and when you started your deuce the engine circulated warm oil with the engine starting much easier due to the warmth in the block.

One aftermarket solution that speeds to pressure rise is the change from the cannister filters on the oil to the spin on oil filters (With check valves) with the filter base adapters. The time to pressure is reduced to less than a couple of seconds generally.

The idea is to treat the old iron with respect. It is not as if we can requistition a new engine because we screwed up the one we had.

As to warm up, do what you can and keep a stop watch on hand and when you get to 4:30 pull out of the driveway.

Cool down is more critical with the C turbp than the D. The design of the casting of the C model turbo is such that there is more latent heat build up and if you shut it down quickly before removing the heat with the oil you risk bearing damage. A simple answer to a problematic neighbor in terms of cool down is to cool the truck down at a parking lot close to the house for the 5 minutes or so and then drive easily to the house and park, let it idle for a couple of minutes and then shut down.

I have come home after a hard run and had to idle the truck for the 5 minutes to allow the coolant to come down in temperature and the engine to cool off. All of this is simply to take care of the engine and protect your investment.

As it is I have head gaskets to do sometime in March and am driving very little to avoid any problems. Mine are leaking oil and need to be replaced with the updated design head gaskets...

Take care and keep warm if you are in the NE

RL

 

[stumps]

15 - 20 seconds for full engine pressurization???? Mine is popping up at around 5 - 8 seconds depending on outside temps with stock filters. I would be concerned if mine took that long to pressurize.

Hi Dan,

I can assure you that most of us that have observed the 15 to 20 second wait until oil pressure on our deuces ( after they have sat for awhile ) are quite concerned. Jatonka, and Westfolk were so concerned that they designed and built, custom made adapters to allow them to use modern spin-on oil filters with anti back-flow valves on their deuces. They now each have quite a lot of customers, who were once also very concerned about the 15 to 20 second lag, but are no more.

Now me, on the other hand, I am quite interested in why your deuce doesn't seem to follow the pattern followed by the rest of our deuces. The current cartridge oil filter arrangement is designed to let all of the oil in the canisters drain back, through the oil pump, in about 6 hours. That allows for easy oil heating with a simple oil pan heater in Arctic conditions (eg. Minnesota).

That drain-back characteristic is achieved by orienting the oil canisters upside-down, and well above the oil sump level... It is also the reason why a deuce that shows FULL on the dipstick when it has sat overnight will correctly show an oil level that is 1-1/2 inches above FULL when it is read within a few minutes after shutdown.

Is it possible that your engine has a high flow oil pump from the 5T, LDS-465-1A engine?

-Chuck

 

[Maverick1701]

Is it possible that your engine has a high flow oil pump from the 5T, LDS-465-1A engine?

-Chuck

I want one!!!!

 

[dittle]

Chuck,

To answer your question about the pump I have to say I do not know. The engine is a Hercules (not that it matters) and was rebuilt in 1993. I do know from an unfortunate experience that it will dump 5 gallons of oil on the floor in about 15 seconds or so through an incorrect oil filter gasket/oil can incompatability......... I run 20 quarts of 15w-40 and 2 quarts of Lucas just to give you info of what's in there.

That being said I'm not interested in the spin on upgrade. My grandfather's tractor has the exact same filter set up on it on the original engine from 1952 with over 21,000 hours on it and its still running. We never had a failure on it due to the filter set up.

 

[rlwm211]

I like the spin ons because I can change the filters with nary a drop of spilled oil. There is nothing quite as dirty as dirty Diesel Oil........

I hope that everyone understands that I am simply advocating your treating your deuce with respect and understanding that the technology, although very good, is almost 70 years old and requires an entirely different approach than our current generation of computer controlled vehicles that you can jump in, start and go.

The deuce is a piece of equipment as opposed to merely being a means of transportation and needs to be managed by a qualified operator not a driver.

All of this leads to a long life and happy ownership.

RL

 

[emr]

I did not get an operator's manual

gee U think they would come with them