Runaway MEP-003a !!!

[2Pbfeet]

@Chainbreaker SeaFoam should be fine. I have done the slug of 100% SeaFoam and it can make a real difference. Personally, I would keep adding SeaFoam for a while just to remove any hidden gunk and keep the gunk from fouling things that you care about.

I have used Opti-lube XPD and Summer + in the past. You might be aware that both products use biodiesel (5% & 3%, respectively) to enhance their lubricity. That lubricity is great, but for generators, I would add a biocide on top of the XPD to hold the line on algae/bacteria growth in the tank, especially given what you have had.

Given the age of the engine, I think that it will not run well or rather long on ULSD without a lubricity additive. If you have access to renewable diesel (not biodiesel) in your corner of Oregon, I would use that in your generator. If not, pick your favorite lubricity additive and use it in high enough concentrations to bring the ULSD back up to "full sulfur diesel". Your injectors and injection pump will thank you.

Opti-Lube Additives & Lubricants

www.opti-lube.com

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[rickf]

With both the Seafoam and the XPD you said "According to the manufacturer". Think about that. That is marketing 101, convince the consumer it will do no harm at all. I am very suspicious of additives claiming to work wonders. I know Seafoam works in normal mixtures but it takes a long time. The only thing I do not worry about adding extra of is Power Service fuel supplement. In saying that I mean I do not measure it out to the half ounce when adding it to my tank. I guestimate how much new fuel I will be adding and add roughly that much and I am usually on the generous side. That stuff has been proven over millions of miles in big rigs. I am not saying that soup you made is the issue but it is something I would eliminate just to be sure.

 

[Ray70]

Hey @Chainbreaker. You are correct about the home made injector adapter. I have one that goes in place of the injector.
If you have access to a lathe and want to make one I can send you the measurements.
Or I can mail you mine and you're welcome to use it and just send it back when done.

A couple of suggestions on the run away issue. First, as you know the 003 has an IP with external linkage, no internal fuel rail.
If it runs away, push lightly down on the IP linkage and see if it lowers the RPM's.

If not and you suspect it is running away due to excess fuel, the 003 has a tube in the valve cover that leads to a port in the intake.
Make sure that tube is in tact, otherwise you could suck oil from the valve covers into the intake.

Lastly, If it was more of a gradual uncontrollable increase in RPM, I have a log splitter built from a 002 engine. I rebuilt everything on the motor including the IP and injectors before building this thing, but for some reason if I leave it for a few minutes with no load on the motor, the RPM's will suddenly begin to slowly rise from about 1200 where I normally run it, to probably over 2000 RPM. as soon as I touch the controls and put a little load on the motor, the RPM's come back down. I have never figured out what is causing it, but I do know that pushing down on the throttle linkage will lower the RPM's so I don't think it's an unmetered fuel leak.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Hey @Chainbreaker. You are correct about the home made injector adapter. I have one that goes in place of the injector.
If you have access to a lathe and want to make one I can send you the measurements.
Or I can mail you mine and you're welcome to use it and just send it back when done.

A couple of suggestions on the run away issue. First, as you know the 003 has an IP with external linkage, no internal fuel rail.
If it runs away, push lightly down on the IP linkage and see if it lowers the RPM's.

If not and you suspect it is running away due to excess fuel, the 003 has a tube in the valve cover that leads to a port in the intake.
Make sure that tube is in tact, otherwise you could suck oil from the valve covers into the intake.

Lastly, If it was more of a gradual uncontrollable increase in RPM, I have a log splitter built from a 002 engine. I rebuilt everything on the motor including the IP and injectors before building this thing, but for some reason if I leave it for a few minutes with no load on the motor, the RPM's will suddenly begin to slowly rise from about 1200 where I normally run it, to probably over 2000 RPM. as soon as I touch the controls and put a little load on the motor, the RPM's come back down. I have never figured out what is causing it, but I do know that pushing down on the throttle linkage will lower the RPM's so I don't think it's an unmetered fuel leak.

Good suggestion on manually lowering the IP linkage during a runaway event for verification of IP's action or possible inaction. These 2 run away events were my first ever engine run away. I've heard of run-away diesels and have seen some runaways with catastrophic results posted on YouTube videos (hot rodded highly modified trucks etc.) but never experienced a diesel runaway firsthand, just glad I was a couple feet from Control Box both times. It really gets your attention fast!

I don't have access to a lathe so I might take you up on the loaner compression adapter offer. Good idea to read each cylinder's compression since I will be pulling the injectors to inspect & perhaps send back along with the compression tester for you to verify pop off pressure settings etc. I have the time over fall/winter to fully vet this new to me -003a unit before it might be called into action next summer.

The good thing through all this is "I haven't had to spend a dime yet" on purchasing any additional oil filters, fuel filters, air filter or glow plugs as I already have spares in spades for my -002a units. That's one added reason I finally "gave up the hunt" for finding a nice "within driving range pickup" MEP-803 since the -002a/-003a are the devils I already know plus the "genset standardization form factor" as far as spare parts plus experience using the -002a's I've developed using and participating in these "treasured forums" over the years.

 

[rickf]

"but never experienced a diesel runaway firsthand"

Most people have never seen a runaway in person. A true runaway is when nothing short of blocking the air will shut it down. Anyone that has dealt with Detroit diesels has probably been in the situation. I had an old 671 Detroit run away on me and also a very scary 12V73 run away. Both were handled by blocking the air at the air cleaner.

On the bigger engines you really need a block off plate of 3/4" plywood and no smaller. I will literally inhale anything else. I have seen entire moving blankets sucked in. It slowed it down but did not stop it. The 12 cylinder we knew was a problem due to the turbo seals being bad in it so we kept the outer end plate off of the air cleaner and had a piece of plywood behind the seat just in case.

But let me tell you, running up to the side of a 12 cylinder diesel running flat out is damn scary! I threw that board up there and if my fingers had been between the board and the air cleaner they would have been cut off when it slammed in place. What you say is true, you are not thinking on all cylinders when that is going on.
That was in a 71 Brockway heavy haul truck we used for hauling trees that had been cut to the sawmill.

 

[glcaines]

While in the Army, I saw an M35A2 multifuel engine run away. We were in the mess hall eating lunch when the engine, which was idling, started increasing RPM. The RPM increased very slowly at first and then really took off. The engine disintegrated virtually completely. Luckily, no one was injured. There wasn't much left to help identify the cause, but likely a leaking turbo.

 

[Chainbreaker]

@Chainbreaker ...I would add a biocide on top of the XPD to hold the line on algae/bacteria growth in the tank, especially given what you have had.

Given the age of the engine, I think that it will not run well or rather long on ULSD without a lubricity additive. If you have access to renewable diesel (not biodiesel) in your corner of Oregon, I would use that in your generator. If not, pick your favorite lubricity additive and use it in high enough concentrations to bring the ULSD back up to "full sulfur diesel". Your injectors and injection pump will thank you.

Opti-Lube Additives & Lubricants

www.opti-lube.com

All the best,

2Pbfeet

Yep I do use "BioBore" as a biocide treatment in all my Diesel that is stored in cans and in genset day tanks/aux tanks in addition to fuel treatments that boosts cetane & lubricity.

I just recently switched to using "Hotshot's Secret Everyday Diesel Treatment". It says: "Protects injectors & fuel pumps by increasing fuel lubricity up to 26%, boosts cetane by up to 7 points, contains water dispersants, fuel stabilizers & rust inhibitors. to fully protect fuel system." Says "Verified by 3rd party ASTM D-ASTM D-6079 testing". So I'm gonna run with that moving forward, hopefully those representations check out.

Though it's getting hard to separate out the "Marketing Hype/Snake Oil" from all the products being marketed these days. Hopefully having the ASTM testing helps sort some of that out.

 

[rickf]

Yep I do use "BioBore" as a biocide treatment in all my Diesel that is stored in cans and in genset day tanks/aux tanks in addition to fuel treatments that boosts cetane & lubricity.

I just recently switched to using "Hotshot's Secret Everyday Diesel Treatment". It says: "Protects injectors & fuel pumps by increasing fuel lubricity up to 26%, boosts cetane by up to 7 points, contains water dispersants, fuel stabilizers & rust inhibitors. to fully protect fuel system." Says "Verified by 3rd party ASTM D-ASTM D-6079 testing". So I'm gonna run with that moving forward, hopefully those representations check out.

Though it's getting hard to separate out the "Marketing Hype/Snake Oil" from all the products being marketed these days. Hopefully having the ASTM testing helps sort some of that out.

Technically it should work as stated, Just the "Secrete every day treatment" kind of sounds hokey to me. I will stick with something that has been tested in the real world for 68 years. For a genset really any of the additives should work as long as it is not something like Walmart house brand. But in vehicles I want tried and true.

 

[2Pbfeet]

Unfortunately, Consumers Union hasn't run a diesel fuel additive review in some time, that I have seen.

Here is a widely circulated report that purports to be 3rd party testing. Other forums have signed off on the results, but I have no personal knowledge. I just know that the standard HFRR wear test is not cheap.

https://www.duramaxforum.com/attachments/lubricity-additive-study-results-pdf.54873/

Detailed analysis of the High Frequency Reciprocating Rig" (HFRR) test for lubricity here;

Infineum Insight - HFRR best test for lubricity

Ben Hornby, Infineum Technologist – Fuels Component and Formulation Science, assesses the HFRR test to see if it is still the best tool for measuring lubricity in today’s more complex world.

www.infineuminsight.com

If the engine was designed for higher sulfur diesel, the injection system will wear out more quickly on ULSD.

Pre 1993 was the full sulfur diesel with 5,000ppm sulfur.
1993 was a step down to "Low Sulfur Diesel", 500ppm sulfur. (Max HFRR wear scar 263 microns)
2007 was the step down to "Ultralow sulfur diesel", 50ppm sulfur (Max wear scar 520 or 460 microns, refiners and engine manufacturers respectively, i.e. a big step up, meaning injectors/injection pumps had to be much harder to resist the low lubricity fuel.)
The reason is not the lower sulfur as such, but the refining processes that remove the sulfur also remove aromatics and lubricant fractions from the diesel.

I would point out that the DoD specifications for fuel vary somewhat from the above years, but they use the HFRR and the related Ball On Cylinder test for lubricity in their fuels. (Being the DoD, they have lots of standards for fuels.)

My bottom line is that pre-2007 engine benefit from added lubricity. If, or how, you add it is up to you.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[G744]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was taught military Diesel-powered devices (vehicles, gensets, pumps, eTc) were specified with specially hardened fuel pump and injector components to allow the use of arctic grade fuel, which lacks lubricity as it would cause gumming at extreme low temperatures aka cloud point.

That would infer the use of ULSD fuel will not cause damage in those instances.

 

[Guyfang]

The CECOM Head Tec told me, that CECOM (Communication and Electronics Command) recommends adding lube to the fuel.

 

[Ray70]

The bigger problem I've seen with the LSD is not so much increased wear on IP and injector components, its more the fuel's lower tolerance of long storage times / lesser shelf life / increased susceptibility to gumming up in tight tolerance spaces.
I've seen pumps that have gummed up the plunger and gotten stuck after sitting less than a year with untreated LSD in them, and I've seen machines that sat for 5+ years even 10+ years with the "old stuff" in them without any problem.
Either way, no matter what you own... if diesel goes in the tank, Treat your fuel appropriately!

 

[rickf]

Unfortunately, Consumers Union hasn't run a diesel fuel additive review in some time, that I have seen.

Here is a widely circulated report that purports to be 3rd party testing. Other forums have signed off on the results, but I have no personal knowledge. I just know that the standard HFRR wear test is not cheap.

https://www.duramaxforum.com/attachments/lubricity-additive-study-results-pdf.54873/

Detailed analysis of the High Frequency Reciprocating Rig" (HFRR) test for lubricity here;

Infineum Insight - HFRR best test for lubricity

Ben Hornby, Infineum Technologist – Fuels Component and Formulation Science, assesses the HFRR test to see if it is still the best tool for measuring lubricity in today’s more complex world.

www.infineuminsight.com

If the engine was designed for higher sulfur diesel, the injection system will wear out more quickly on ULSD.

Pre 1993 was the full sulfur diesel with 5,000ppm sulfur.
1993 was a step down to "Low Sulfur Diesel", 500ppm sulfur. (Max HFRR wear scar 263 microns)
2007 was the step down to "Ultralow sulfur diesel", 50ppm sulfur (Max wear scar 520 or 460 microns, refiners and engine manufacturers respectively, i.e. a big step up, meaning injectors/injection pumps had to be much harder to resist the low lubricity fuel.)
The reason is not the lower sulfur as such, but the refining processes that remove the sulfur also remove aromatics and lubricant fractions from the diesel.

I would point out that the DoD specifications for fuel vary somewhat from the above years, but they use the HFRR and the related Ball On Cylinder test for lubricity in their fuels. (Being the DoD, they have lots of standards for fuels.)

My bottom line is that pre-2007 engine benefit from added lubricity. If, or how, you add it is up to you.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

A little history on why I distrust most additives. Back in the days when I had my own shop I was hired by a very wealthy client to test additives, both oil and gas. I told him I did not have access to the labs needed and his reply was, "I want real work testing, use my cars" His cars consisted of a large collection of antiques and classics!!! I said this could cause engine damage on these cars. He knew that and wanted to see what the damage was. So over a period of several years I ran different additives and recorded all of the results. Some helped, most did nothing and some did damage. Remember Arco Graphite? That took out the engine on a 66 Dodge factory race car! Unfortunately I do not still have all of that info as it was all turned over to the owner. I was also paid to repair any of the vehicles with damage. And the best part was I was doing this in his massive garage with many lifts, something that was nothing but a dream of mechanics in the days before lift in home garages were common.
Before you ask, I will not mention the products that did damage because most of them are still out there and I do not want to be sued! The Arco Graphite was one that came and went for a good reason. I don't think the Arco Refining Company is even still in business.

 

[G744]

The Phoenix metro has many ARCO gas stations.

 

[2Pbfeet]

The Phoenix metro has many ARCO gas stations.

We have ARCOs around here, too. What is left of Atlantic Richfield/Refining Co is now, I believe, mostly a brand of BP Amoco. Most of the chemicals division was sold off sometime in the late '90s. It can be really hard to track the fate of products as divisions are bought and sold.

https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/who-we-are/our-history/heritage-brands.html

@rickf thanks for the personal history. That must have been interesting.

@Ray70 it is not just you. The hydrotreating of diesel makes the fuel much more prone to microbial growth and rust. I hate to have too large a stockpile of fuel for that reason. I probably need to knuckle down and put a larger tank in with a recirculating filter to remove water and bugs. Not quite on my do now list...

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Fireriders]

While in the Army, I saw an M35A2 multifuel engine run away. We were in the mess hall eating lunch when the engine, which was idling, started increasing RPM. The RPM increased very slowly at first and then really took off. The engine disintegrated virtually completely. Luckily, no one was injured. There wasn't much left to help identify the cause, but likely a leaking turbo.

When they runaway they are very hard to stop before the destroy themselves. I have seen in my many years this very same thing. This is why I put a 1/4 turn shut off valve in my fuel line. This will stop a runaway. This is also a theft proof device. I shut it when I'm leaving it somewhere. No fuel means no start.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Update: Today, in between dodging rain, I performed a more detailed static inspection from Throttle/Governor control knob all the way through to Governor Arm shaft, to re-verify free non-binding movement. I verified that the shaft going into the Governor Housing showed physical movement when actuating Throttle Control. All the way down the line it checks out as functional in a non-running static state.

I re-sprayed lubricant on anything that requires mechanical movement. Nothing sticking/binding or hanging up. I compared all the linkages to the -24P manual & everything appears to be installed according to manual. Also, I noticed that the safety wire tag is on the IJ pump. So, IJ pump has not been "knob dicked" (borrowing a Guy Fang term!) Also, FWIW it's not a PSU pump (no bottom screw yay!)

I also popped the Air Cleaner intake cover off & reattached (it was stuck on tight) just to make sure I can easily remove it. I now have a section of flat board nearby to use to block off the air intake "just in case" I need to take that action if the emergency stop switch were to somehow fail me. Two is one, one is none! Though, I still need to pick up a CO2 extinguisher.

Tomorrow, weather permitting, I plan to run another load test & see what happens, I'll probably take a tranquilizer beforehand given the result of the last run! . I won't have a helper tomorrow, but I'll see if I can somehow rig my iPhone up to capture any irregular action, especially if it were to decide to run away again!

 

[Ray70]

When they runaway they are very hard to stop before the destroy themselves. I have seen in my many years this very same thing. This is why I put a 1/4 turn shut off valve in my fuel line. This will stop a runaway. This is also a theft proof device. I shut it when I'm leaving it somewhere. No fuel means no start.

I wouldn't rely on only a fuel shut off to protect a diesel from a run away disaster, for 2 reasons....

1) No matter where you locate the shut off valve, there will be some down stream fuel that could allow the engine to over run and destroy itself before consuming the fuel that is in the lines, pump, filters and hoses etc..

2) Most times a run away diesel isn't running off its normal fuel supply anyway. It's running off an uncontrollable source of fuel such as oil from a leaking turbo seal or other engine oil leak, but quite often not diesel fuel from the IP and injectors.

The only guaranteed way to stop it is to either stall the engine mechanically ,which is not usually possible, or remove 1 of the 3 requirements for combustion, oxygen, fuel or compression. Since you can't stop the oil leak you have to either remove the air or compression.
The fastest and safest thing to do is either block the air intake or introduce an inert gas ( such as CO2, nitrogen, argon etc. ) that won't support combustion.

An anti-theft device is a much more reliable use of a hidden fuel shut-off. A CO2 extinguisher is more reliable for stopping a run away.

 

[Chainbreaker]

I'm going to defer doing another test run for today at least. Since I really haven't fixed anything or discovered the runaway cause, I'm going to dive a bit deeper searching for clues by starting with removing the valve cover that I noticed some signs of overheating during the last runaway event.

Also, Ray's mention earlier last week of verifying the integrity of oil tube on the underside of the valve cover bears checking out. I also plan to use my iPhone's endoscope attachment to view areas where I can access & probe deeper.

I'll share any interesting results as I manage to uncover them.

 

[Scoobyshep]

There is a commercially available air cutoff valve specifically made for a runaway. Down side is they are stupid expensive