Some engine questions for you guys restoring V100/V150's

[Ruppster]

IIRC the stock engine in the V100 is the Dodge industrial 361 V8. My first question is do they have a 2 barrel or 4 barrel carb? Second, does the carb have a governor under it?

For those that are going with another engine does anyone have distributor from a 361 that they want to sell? If so is it electronic or old style points?

On another note for those not familiar with the 361 industrial engines Dodge used the same engine in the D500-D800/C500-C800/L600-L700 commercial trucks from 1960 to 1977. They had a bigger brother that was 413 cubic inches in size. The 413 was also used a lot in late 60's and early 70's RV's and had a 4 barrel carb (the RV's had a different crankshaft though). The reason I bring up the 413 is in case anyone with a V100 wants an easy power upgrade. A 413 will drop right in in place of the 361.

Ruppster
1962 Dodge C700 (with a 361 and a 5 speed tranny)
1970 Dodge CT800 (with a 413 and a 5x4 trans setup)
1985 M1009 Blazer
www.dodge-semis.com

 

[Elwenil]

A 361 is basically the same as a 383 or 400 just with different CID and build specs. There was also a B series engine in the 50s that was a 350. The 413 is an RB series engine and has a higher deck than the B series and they include the 413, 426 (Wedge and Hemi) and the 440. All will bolt up to the same transmission and engine mounts. Since we are on the subject of distributors, B engine distributors and RB engine distributors will not swap as they are a different length due to the difference in deck height. Naturally if you are doing a restoration you won't be interested in swapping distributors to a stock style, but I figured I'd mention it.

 

[Ruppster]

Thanks. I'm an old Mopar nut so I know a good amount about the Dodge B and RB engines. And there are a few differences between a 361/383/400 used in a car versus a 361 used in a commercial truck (the heads being one of them). While the blocks are the same the commercial 413's (and some 361's) used a different crankshaft that made it harder to bolt up to a car tranny. You had to change the crank to make it work. And yes, I know about the distributor difference between an B and RB.

Ruppster
1962 Dodge C700 (with a 361 and a 5 speed tranny)
1970 Dodge CT800 (with a 413 and a 5x4 trans setup)
1985 M1009 Blazer
www.dodge-semis.com

 

[Elwenil]

Yeah, there are a lot of changes to various industrial engines but they generally are very similar to their civilian counterparts. At the dealership we frequently replaced the 361 engines in D600 and larger trucks with 383s and 400s due to the unavailability of 361 engines in any reasonable time frame. A farmer or construction company isn't worried about getting a better running engine that is a bit larger as long as he gets his work truck back quickly. A few exceptions to the rule are the long or extended block engines that had longer and in some cases, really odd crankshafts. I have seen one 413 that was a water pump engine for a sprinkler system at a golf course that had crank flanges on both ends and an odd balancing assembly. There were also 392 Hemis being used in the same location with single barrel carbs, lol. So yeah, most of the industrial engines are just common engines with different heads and manifolds and carbs designed for their specific application but a few are really wild. I already tried to get one of the V100 guys to put a built 440 or crate Hemi in there and go street racing but the idea was shot down, lol.

 

[jimk]

The V-100's engine (M75) uses an odd Holley 4 barrel carb. It looks like a throttle body with a small float bowl suspended above on small towers. I'd think the design is for rough terrain (high angles). It is claimed to be troublesome and a modern square bore Holley is often used instead. There is a vacuum governor valve on carb. It's sending unit is on the timing cover and runs off the end of the camshaft.

The Cam is a mirror grind and turns backwards, It is being driven by two cam gears (no idlers) instead of a chain. A regular cam will work when it is being turned by a timing chain. The cam gear's oil pump drive/ dist gear are cut in the opposite direction as is the dist shaft gear. This is so normal dist rotation is maintained along with oil pump function. This was done to keep the dist shaft gear thrust loading in the normal direction, down against the block.

The dist is a 24V waterproof single points unit. There is an extension to get it higher on the manifold for clearance.

The B engine distributors are interchangeable, as are those among the RB blocks. Because of the raised block a RB dist needs a spacer to use on a B block.(Chrysler make an aluminum spacer PN P3690275 for this task. ex- lets you use a hemi dist on the B block). Conversion to electronic ign is easy if the entire system is used.

There is a larger (9qt?) front sump oil pan w/corresponding pick-up.

The V uses front dump exhaust manifolds.

The cooling fan is also reverse flow, because it is a pusher type fan. A serpintine drive Mustang fan will work.

JimK

 

[B3.3T]

JimK is correct on his engine details.

The Stock Holley 4-barrel is only a 350 cfm and never worked very well. An Edelbrock 1405 Performer 650 cfm and Edelbrock, or even stock Mopar manifold, work miracles on the M75 engine. Easily 20hp+ gain and smoothness out the whazoo... The Only way to go.


Stock is junk and not worth the effort. Its a dust collector, and belongs on a shelf.

 

[Ruppster]

The V-100's engine (M75) uses an odd Holley 4 barrel carb. It looks like a throttle body with a small float bowl suspended above on small towers. I'd think the design is for rough terrain (high angles). It is claimed to be troublesome and a modern square bore Holley is often used instead. There is a vacuum governor valve on carb. It's sending unit is on the timing cover and runs off the end of the camshaft.

The sending unit for the governor is on the end of the camshaft? That's a new one on me. On the commercial trucks Dodge used a special distributor that controlled the flow of vacuum to the governor under the carb. As far as the use of the 4 barrel carb that's good news. Would love to get my hands on one of those intake manifolds for my C700.

The Cam is a mirror grind and turns backwards, It is being driven by two cam gears (no idlers) instead of a chain. A regular cam will work when it is being turned by a timing chain. The cam gear's oil pump drive/ dist gear are cut in the opposite direction as is the dist shaft gear. This is so normal dist rotation is maintained along with oil pump function. This was done to keep the dist shaft gear thrust loading in the normal direction, down against the block.

Dodge did the same thing with the cams on the commercial trucks up till 1970. The gear drive was to increase mechanical reliability for long haul trucking. But for some reason in 1971 Dodge starting using the same chain type cam gears used on their car engines in the commercial truck engines. I think lower production costs became more important then overall reliability. And you are correct about the drive gear for the distributor and oil pump. What's funny is I have about a dozen factory service manuals from 1960 to 1974 for the commercial Dodge trucks and the sections on the 361/413 engines have pictures of both gear driven cams and car cams.

The dist is a 24V waterproof single points unit. There is an extension to get it higher on the manifold for clearance.

The B engine distributors are interchangeable, as are those among the RB blocks. Because of the raised block a RB dist needs a spacer to use on a B block.(Chrysler make an aluminum spacer PN P3690275 for this task. ex- lets you use a hemi dist on the B block). Conversion to electronic ign is easy if the entire system is used.

Was the spacer used on the V100's distributor truly needed for clearance or could it have been used so that a modified RB distributor would work instead?

As far as distributors from B series Dodge engines being interchangable that is true for car engines. The trick is on the commercial truck engines Dodge had a special vacuum control for the governor system built in to the distributor. I could use a car type distributor on the 361 in my C700 but I would have to remove the governor system. Part of the reason for my questions in this thread was to see if the V100 used the same type of distributor as the commercial engines. There is an NOS distributor on eBay right now but the guy wants $600 for it. Too rich for my blood (I got the truck itself for less then that).

There is a larger (9qt?) front sump oil pan w/corresponding pick-up.

The V uses front dump exhaust manifolds.

The cooling fan is also reverse flow, because it is a pusher type fan. A serpintine drive Mustang fan will work.

JimK

The oil pan sounds like the same one Dodge used on the heavy duty trucks.
http://www.dodge-semis.com/Brochures/1964Engines/pg04.html and http://www.dodge-semis.com/Brochures/1973MD/pg10and11.html show a couple different pictures of a commercial 413 with the front sump pan. Hadn't thought about the exhaust manifolds. Wonder why they didn't use the middle dump type? Anyhow, thanks for all the info Jim.

On another note does anyone have any pictures of the engine compartment on a V100?

Ruppster
1962 Dodge C700
1970 Dodge CT800
1985 M1009 Blazer
www.dodge-semis.com

 

[Ruppster]

JimK is correct on his engine details.

The Stock Holley 4-barrel is only a 350 cfm and never worked very well. An Edelbrock 1405 Performer 650 cfm and Edelbrock, or even stock Mopar manifold, work miracles on the M75 engine. Easily 20hp+ gain and smoothness out the whazoo... The Only way to go.

There's one main problem with using a car intake on the commercial Dodge engines as the two are not the same. The car engines have ports to run exhaust gases under the carb while the commercial truck engines have coolant flowing thru the intake under the carb. On top of this there is a fitting that routes some of this coolant from the intake just below the carb to the water pump. Yes, a car intake can be made to work but for me it is not worth the trouble. I'm not building a hot rod.

Stock is junk and not worth the effort. Its a dust collector, and belongs on a shelf.

Well, all I can say to that is to each their own. Since it's my truck I think I will decide what is and is not worth the effort. Thanks anyhow.

Ruppster
1962 Dodge C700
1970 Dodge CT800
1985 M1009 Blazer
www.dodge-semis.com

 

[B3.3T]

Rumpster, ALL my comments were in regards to the M75 as used in the V-100 with the particular 350 Holley/ vacuum govenor setup that you are not familiar with. I wasn't addressing any truck applications at all.

 

[jimk]

The front dump manifolds are an elegant solution, Some are welded up. I have seen pictures of cast iron exhaust manifold with both front and rear dumps. They use a block off plate. The exhaust needs to get out ASAP. The cooling system exhaust duct is available and only a few inches away.

The 440 Dodge motor home front sump oil pan is similar but holds approx. one qt less(It is one inch shorter).

The V dist. uses an extension not a "spacer". It is about 4" long. I don't think many autos used it, but I may be wrong, I mention it because it may be an issue when doing a conversion.

About all I know about the stock V carb is that it looks bazaar. I've been thru a lot of carbs and I'd like to think I can get anything to work. I may even try. If do, I'll retire it to a shelf (or china cabinet). Those 'claims' that it sucks typically come from people with experience.

JimK

 

[M813rc]

On another note does anyone have any pictures of the engine compartment on a V100?

I can't add to the engine discussion, just bow respectfully toward B3 and Jim for their knowledge on V100s. I can however post pictures!

(And yes, I need to clean all that workshop dust off, it'll get done before it gets finished going together)

Cheers


1- looking in right side door toward back
2- looking in left side access hatch
3- looking in rear door
4- inside looking back

 

[Ruppster]

Rumpster, ALL my comments were in regards to the M75 as used in the V-100 with the particular 350 Holley/ vacuum govenor setup that you are not familiar with. I wasn't addressing any truck applications at all.

Rumpster, huh? Sorry, didn't mean to piss you off.

I do owe you an apology though as I did not word my post too well. Sorry about that. I was trying to point out that even in a V100 using a car intake manifold on the 361 would not be a good idea due to the air pocket it would create in the cooling system under the carb. I might not know anything about the carb setup for the V100 but I do know enough about the overall design of the 361 itself (whether it's in a commercial Dodge truck or a V100) and that was what I was trying to bring up. Sorry for the confusion.

Ruppster

 

[Ruppster]

The V dist. uses an extension not a "spacer". It is about 4" long. I don't think many autos used it, but I may be wrong, I mention it because it may be an issue when doing a conversion.

Well, my hope for the M75 distributor was that it had the vacuum port for the governor setup. But from the sounds of it it doesn't so a V100 distributor wouldn't do me any good. Oh well, it was worth a try. Thanks for the info pertaining to it.

About all I know about the stock V carb is that it looks bazaar. I've been thru a lot of carbs and I'd like to think I can get anything to work. I may even try. If do, I'll retire it to a shelf (or china cabinet). Those 'claims' that it sucks typically come from people with experience.

JimK

If you come across an extra intake manifold from a V100 please let me know as I would be interested in one for the 361 on my C700.

Ruppster

 

[Ruppster]

I can't add to the engine discussion, just bow respectfully toward B3 and Jim for their knowledge on V100s. I can however post pictures!

Rory, thanks for the engine pictures. By any chance do you have a shot of each side of the intake manifold?

Also, do you know what model trans is attached to the 361? Is it a 5652 or a 541?

Ruppster

 

[M813rc]

Transmission is the New Process 541 5-speed. 1st gear is locked out by a plate unless the 4-wheel drive is engaged, to keep it from twisting shafts.

Cheers

 

[Elwenil]

Just a note about the spacer kit to avoid confusion. The Mopar Performance spacer set is the only thing available to the automotive market for swapping distributors. This spacer allowed racers running a B series engine (350, 361, 383 or 400) to be able to run a RB series distributor. This was mainly because Direct Connection offered a race curve distributor with mechanical tach drive for the RB engines, but not for the B engines. The spacer kit allowed the longer distributor to work in the low deck block by making the body of the distributor taller. It consisted of about a 1" tall aluminum spacer and a special tall distributor clamp with a longer bolt. We run the old Direct Connection tach drive distributor with this spacer kit on the 383 in our '71 4 speed Road Runner.

 

[jimk]

V Carb(An aluminum banjo housing normally covers top)
NOS dist and a take off w/extension
intake manifold
gov sender

Also, the V's use a 24V starter and have cyl bores liners.
The dist drive shaft is extra long(not shown).

 

[B3.3T]

No problem Ruppster. We are all here to share and learn. We have been running the Edelbrock manifolds on M75's on several V-100's for over 7 years with no problems. we were told the coolant lines were run through the manifold for cold weather running, so we blocked it at the water pump. No problems. A Mopar CDI ignition can be adapted with some mods., but stock is pretty reliable. If you want a stock M-75 manifold, I have a few. Send a PM.

 

[HellonwheelsV-100]

Here are some pics of the V100 engine we are finishing up. As has already been discussed, the original carb/manifold setup is a pain. I used the Edelbrock performer manifold and a Holley Street Avenger carb. As you can see, it is easy to make it look pretty stock. I repainted the carb so I wouldn't have the chrome finish ruin the look.

 

[wgtactical]

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