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Steel vs Aluminum tubing (Camper frame)

davidb56

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I seen some on CL Spokane. it was 7.50$ square foot. regular price they said is 12.50$. way too pricey. Personally, being more of a welder/fabricator, I prefer steel because its easy to repair and very strong. 2" tubing at 24"centers skinned with 16 gauge steel on the outside, and 1/8" wood paneling on the inside. weight isn't a issue for me as the m35 is rated at 10k on road. There was one for sale just like I described on CL Kalispell MT. a month ago. he did a nice job and had super singles on it too. Im sure after a while you'll figure out the ratio between what you want/need, and $$$$.
 

montaillou

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TLDR: Stuff about my camper build, if you have problems with my threads, you might want to skip this one or look at the pretty picture and shake your head about all the stuff I'm doing wrong.Layout no 8.jpg

Thought I'd write up a little update. Like many on here, life takes us in many directions and my time on this project is proceeding slowly - though that has given me time to think about it a lot. I have nailed down items I want in the camper and come up with a layout that works (for me). The layout of the sub-floor is still TBD, but it gonna be pretty close to the drawing below. In the drawing, the grid squares are 2". The purple at the top is roughly the back of the cab, the darker purple is approximately where the hatch from the cab to the bed is.

I'm treating my project more along the lines of a tiny home rather than a weekender camper.

At this time, I've decided the sub-floor will be made as a box of thin skin aluminum, probably 9" or 10" high. It will be supported from below by the bed, the walls might be a little thicker and there will be numerous supports throughout to support the floor of the camper. My plan atm will be to use a rivet gun, a cheap press brake and make the box on saw horses.

The battery is 14,400 watts at 24v. What do I need so much power for? The incinerating toilet & the air conditioner are massive draws on electricity.

In case you missed my earlier thread, the camper will be shorter than the sub-floor, there will be an open space behind the cab, ~16 inches. In this space will be a spare tire rack, access to the vents from the stove & toilet and maybe some other items I want to store outside. The space will be open air, but have some sort of moveable covering that I'm still working out.

The main door to the camper will either be a pocket or sliding door (up to the ceiling). The emergency hatch at the other end will be more along the lines of a swinging door, something like 32" x 36", I haven't decided yet. I don't plan on coming in this way, It's just gonna be for emergencies or maybe to let air in.

My thoughts on the floor of the camper. While I would love to use 1/8" aluminum, the cost is just too high for me. Not that I'm not spending a stupid amount of money on this project but 1/8" aluminum is like 10x more expensive that 1/2 plywood, even after I resin or epoxy coat the plywood it'll still be at least 5x more expensive. I will check out a couple of local metal scrap dealers and maybe I'll get lucky, but I'm not holding my breath. Anyways, my idea is to create plates that will allow access at some future date to everything under the floor. Now, in some cases, this would mean removing some otherwise bolted in place items, but should I ever need to remove a tank or get to something, I would have the option. These plates will have support members attached underneath and the ends will rest on support posts that will be part of the sub-floor. Think of a tic-tac-toe board with the plates to sit between the cross pieces. It won't be a uniform as tic-tac-toe, but there will be various fixed cross pieces and plates that fit into the spaces, with a lip and catch so everything is flush & mostly watertight.

I have left a 2" gap in the drawings for the wall width, The walls will probably be just a little over 1", and I'll probably use rigid or foam insulation for the space.

Many of the items in the camper will have square tubing around their base to prevent sliding, I also think a strap going over and securing to hold stuff from jostling. Some items will be secured to ribs in the walls. The position of the toilet and wood stove have to be against that wall so I can easily remove/put up the exhaust stacks when I park somewhere. The fridge/freezer needs 4" of space along 2 sides for the compressor to vent - that's why it's out a little bit. The twin over futon will have a couch below that turns into a full sized futon and a twin bunk above. The bunk above has a gate around it, I plan on using this area for storage sans mattress - it's a lot of room for storage. The shower basin will be some inflammable material - probably metal over a form. The shower curtain will be Nomex with Scotch Guard (from what I've read, once it dries, it's not flammable) on the inside.

There are smaller wood stoves, but this is the smallest one I could find that drew air from the outside. It will also burn coal. It's called the Dwarf 3k, if anyone's interested. I did find several other small stoves, and if you don't mind cracking a window for ventilation just ask and I'll list them. The incinerating toilet I'm going with is also the only one I could find that would draw it's air from the outside. Without pulling outside air, during a cycle the burner would use up all the air in the camper(!) and that still wouldn't be enough. Again, I could open a window, but this could suck during cold weather, and it also seems potentially dangerous for such a small space.

The roof will have at least 4 solar panels on it. I have a plan for 8, but I need to construct a model for the rack and see if it works. Because of the panels the toilet and stove have to vent through the wall.

Yep, there are no windows planned. I may put in some portholes, saw some 120 miles away, if they're still there next time I'm down that way.
 

Another Ahab

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In case you missed my earlier thread, the camper will be shorter than the sub-floor, there will be an open space behind the cab, ~16 inches. In this space will be a spare tire rack, access to the vents from the stove & toilet and maybe some other items I want to store outside. .
One of these, stored in there, might come in handy:
 

Attachments

TechnoWeenie

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Nova Laboratories, WA
Interwest metals
2208 Pacific Hwy E, Fife, WA 98424

Charges a flat price per lb, for whatever you get. Stainless is one price, aluminum is one price, mild steel is one price.

So, doesn't matter if you get 3 - 10ft pieces of square tubing, and 6 sheets of 16ga, it'll all be based on weight.

Makes calculating prices really easy.

It's my go to place for metal projects.

They also do custom cuts (although not precise it's not CNC), so if you need a specific shape, size, or length, they can cut it..
 

Another Ahab

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Interwest metals
2208 Pacific Hwy E, Fife, WA 98424

Charges a flat price per lb, for whatever you get. Stainless is one price, aluminum is one price, mild steel is one price.

It's my go to place for metal projects.

They also do custom cuts (although not precise it's not CNC), so if you need a specific shape, size, or length, they can cut it..
Wish they had a shop here in the Mid-Atlantic!
 

TechnoWeenie

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Wish they had a shop here in the Mid-Atlantic!
Family run business, Asian ( I wanna say Korean?), former military IIRC.

Sooooo nice to walk in and say 'I need N X tubes Y long, 4 16ga sheets A by B, etc... and have them cut it, put it on a scale and say '$37.50' or whatever.

Since the weight of these materials is known, you can do your own calculations. They also have expanded steel, and specialty products like grating, diamondplate, and grip strut.

So many companies have minimum orders, specific piece pricing plug upcharges for custom dimensions, and huge lead times. These guys don't.

I won't say they're the cheapest, but I will say the convenience and customer service are great, and unless it's a huge project, I don't even bother looking anywhere else.

I can't count how many times I needed some random piece of metal, measured what I needed, showed up, picked out my metal and said I needed it 'this size', and walked out for less than $20, 5 mins later... Can't really beat that.

22528794_1546098598784098_5938368323184394480_o.jpg22459279_1546097948784163_2856925668841428999_o.jpg

All the sheeting and whatnot is inside their building... Mostly 4x8 sheets of differing hardness/thickness/material type, floor to ceiling, in racks...
 

TechnoWeenie

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So, let's say I wanna make a cube, with 4ft sections... using 1" x 1" - 0.065" wall 6063 Aluminum square tubing..

Each 4 ft section would weigh 1.09 lbs.

I'd need 12 of them to make a cube.

I have no clue what the current rate is, but let's say $4.50/lb for aluminum

(1.09 * 12) * 4.50 = $58.86 to get enough metal to make a 4ft cube.
 

Another Ahab

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Family run business, Asian ( I wanna say Korean?), former military IIRC.

Sooooo nice to walk in and say 'I need N X tubes Y long, 4 16ga sheets A by B, etc... and have them cut it, put it on a scale and say '$37.50' or whatever.

Since the weight of these materials is known, you can do your own calculations. They also have expanded steel, and specialty products like grating, diamondplate, and grip strut.

So many companies have minimum orders, specific piece pricing plug upcharges for custom dimensions, and huge lead times. These guys don't.

I won't say they're the cheapest, but I will say the convenience and customer service are great, and unless it's a huge project, I don't even bother looking anywhere else.

I can't count how many times I needed some random piece of metal, measured what I needed, showed up, picked out my metal and said I needed it 'this size', and walked out for less than $20, 5 mins later... Can't really beat that.

View attachment 829852View attachment 829853

All the sheeting and whatnot is inside their building... Mostly 4x8 sheets of differing hardness/thickness/material type, floor to ceiling, in racks...
They could franchise that model, and likely make a Mint!

Some business school graduate is going to stumble on them (maybe by reading this thread), and take that operation to the bank.

I sure wish they had an East Coast division...
 

montaillou

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120 miles away, cost savings might be offset by travel. I'll look at them when I make my big order, when I finalize my plans.

I've already changed my layout, yet again. Wanted the align the sink, shower and gray water tank better.

Layout no 9b.jpg

And I'll be building my bed out of a combination steel tube and plywood - saw a pull out slat bed in another RV thread.



Something like this will allow me to customize it for a full XL futon mattress and push it together during the day for a couch. Won't use bottom rails like the drawing so I can store my fridge/freezer underneath and have it on sliding rails so it can be pulled out.
 
Last edited:

LeeRoy Jenkems

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Nevada
Responding to your original post. I'm a little late to the party but I'll do my best.

Ok, so one thing, think of alloys. Are you bending the tubing on a bender? Get 6063. Welding or riveting it? 6061. Riveting it? Use stainless steel rivets and invest in a pneumatic riveter.

Doing a fuel tank from aluminum(I've built a couple), I'd go with a minimum of 1/8. 3/16 with internal baffling will get you good results. Use 5052 alloy and minimize welds by having the metal bent with a brake. Sheet with internal gussets/baffles will get you a very sturdy product. Definitely TIG weld it, unless you want seepage. Spool gun is fast but even with good procedure isn't perfect.

The flooring really depends on the span. Definitely go with rectangular tube. 1.5x3x0.125 on 16" centers will net you a very sturdy floor if it's spanning less than 8' or so. Just like with wood, rectangular on edge gets you a better cross section. 2x2 is going to be inferior to 1x3 for a load in that span, even if the weight/cost are the same.

If you lay aluminum tubing across the steel frame, be sure to put something between the two surfaces. Nylon washers, rubber, whatever.

Only use stainless fasteners with aluminum. Galv will react and get nasty quick.

Aluminum is super easy to cut. You can cut it with a normal chopsaw with the right blade and some bar soap as a cutting lube.

As far as wind shear that's kind of hard to calculate. It can be done but I'd use software.





So, let's say I wanna make a cube, with 4ft sections... using 1" x 1" - 0.065" wall 6063 Aluminum square tubing..

Each 4 ft section would weigh 1.09 lbs.

I'd need 12 of them to make a cube.

I have no clue what the current rate is, but let's say $4.50/lb for aluminum

(1.09 * 12) * 4.50 = $58.86 to get enough metal to make a 4ft cube.


Ok so a couple things..I'd probably not use 0.065. It's a lot harder to weld, Just go with 1/8 wall. Secondly go with 6061. From my current supplier I pay on average about $2.50/lb. But 1/8 isn't necessarily twice as much as 1/16 despite being twice the weight. There is a nominal charge just for extruding. If you want easy assembly, go with some angle. I recommend sharp corner angle instead of fillet corner angle. Easier to fit up than the fillet stuff. It's also super lightweight. And stainless rivet it together. Very easy and sturdy. Seriously stainless rivets are insanely strong. Just match the grip range because they aren't as versatile as aluminum rivets.


Ok that's all for now. Hope I helped.
 

montaillou

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Responding to your original post. I'm a little late to the party but I'll do my best.

Ok, so one thing, think of alloys. Are you bending the tubing on a bender? Get 6063. Welding or riveting it? 6061. Riveting it? Use stainless steel rivets and invest in a pneumatic riveter.

Doing a fuel tank from aluminum(I've built a couple), I'd go with a minimum of 1/8. 3/16 with internal baffling will get you good results. Use 5052 alloy and minimize welds by having the metal bent with a brake. Sheet with internal gussets/baffles will get you a very sturdy product. Definitely TIG weld it, unless you want seepage. Spool gun is fast but even with good procedure isn't perfect.

The flooring really depends on the span. Definitely go with rectangular tube. 1.5x3x0.125 on 16" centers will net you a very sturdy floor if it's spanning less than 8' or so. Just like with wood, rectangular on edge gets you a better cross section. 2x2 is going to be inferior to 1x3 for a load in that span, even if the weight/cost are the same.

If you lay aluminum tubing across the steel frame, be sure to put something between the two surfaces. Nylon washers, rubber, whatever.

Only use stainless fasteners with aluminum. Galv will react and get nasty quick.

Aluminum is super easy to cut. You can cut it with a normal chopsaw with the right blade and some bar soap as a cutting lube.

As far as wind shear that's kind of hard to calculate. It can be done but I'd use software.









Ok so a couple things..I'd probably not use 0.065. It's a lot harder to weld, Just go with 1/8 wall. Secondly go with 6061. From my current supplier I pay on average about $2.50/lb. But 1/8 isn't necessarily twice as much as 1/16 despite being twice the weight. There is a nominal charge just for extruding. If you want easy assembly, go with some angle. I recommend sharp corner angle instead of fillet corner angle. Easier to fit up than the fillet stuff. It's also super lightweight. And stainless rivet it together. Very easy and sturdy. Seriously stainless rivets are insanely strong. Just match the grip range because they aren't as versatile as aluminum rivets.


Ok that's all for now. Hope I helped.
I have no plans to bend any tubing. I plan to cut and weld steel tube. Essentially, I'll be building a framework. The sub-floor will be an aluminum box contained inside this framework. I plan on riveting the outer skin (material still to be determined) and the sub-floor box. Haven't decided what to make the wall cabinets out of yet.

The fuel tanks in the bed will be made by a company. I contacted a company called KSH and frankly I was blown away by how much it cost. They use robots to build the tanks and can do so in practically any configuration. They quoted me $525 for each tank, where custom builders in my state (there's a lot of marine industry here) were quoting me near $2k each. If I can find a tank builder close enough, I could even pick up and save the not inconsiderable shipping cost.
 

m1010plowboy

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It's so cool to see campers still being hand built these days, thanks for sharing it. I started building in the 80's and wondered if you considered aerodynamics with your build....as well as strength? This one was just big enough to stand up in, lay down, bend over, light a candle and still have room for a Moose on the tailgate.

P2010684.JPG P2010683.JPG


I dropped it moving the ole girl around the other day and It didn't fall apart like I expected. Don't forget to make the bottom of the camper look good too, just in case this happens in 40 years.

P3190008.JPGP3190010.JPGP3190007.JPG
 

LeeRoy Jenkems

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I have no plans to bend any tubing. I plan to cut and weld steel tube. Essentially, I'll be building a framework. The sub-floor will be an aluminum box contained inside this framework. I plan on riveting the outer skin (material still to be determined) and the sub-floor box. Haven't decided what to make the wall cabinets out of yet.

The fuel tanks in the bed will be made by a company. I contacted a company called KSH and frankly I was blown away by how much it cost. They use robots to build the tanks and can do so in practically any configuration. They quoted me $525 for each tank, where custom builders in my state (there's a lot of marine industry here) were quoting me near $2k each. If I can find a tank builder close enough, I could even pick up and save the not inconsiderable shipping cost.
Ok gotcha! Nothing wrong with steel tube. f you're going round tube, use DOM(drawn over mandrel) instead of ERW(electrically resistance welded). It's cold worked and has damn near double the tensile strength. It's a little pricier but it's worth it if you want maximum weight/strength ratio.


As far as wall material goes, you could look into interlocking aluminum slats. They use them on stock trailers and the like. I don't have a source on it, unfortunately.

The tanks are probably just expensive because of the liability involved.
 

Another Ahab

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As far as wall material goes, you could look into interlocking aluminum slats. They use them on stock trailers and the like. I don't have a source on it, unfortunately.
Those interlocking slats sound like an interesting product:

- Only thing to consider there is that aluminum (being so conductive), can get to "popping" during temperature changes

Might not even be an issue, but could make for a lousy night's sleep if it's an issue at all...

Do you have any more info on those slats?!
 

LeeRoy Jenkems

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Those interlocking slats sound like an interesting product:

- Only thing to consider there is that aluminum (being so conductive), can get to "popping" during temperature changes

Might not even be an issue, but could make for a lousy night's sleep if it's an issue at all...

Do you have any more info on those slats?!

I know what you mean. The slats won't oilcan with temp changes, they're pretty rigid. I don't necessarily know where to source them. I'd just weld em on the backside and call er good.

This place has a lot of speciality extrusions. I've bought floor plank from them before. That stuff is insanely rigid, but it wouldn't make for a comfortable floor on it's own..

I buy most my aluminum from this outfit:

Seeing as you're west coast you're probably in their service area.
 

TechnoWeenie

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- Only thing to consider there is that aluminum (being so conductive), can get to "popping" during temperature changes

Might not even be an issue, but could make for a lousy night's sleep if it's an issue at all...
You do NOT want to be woken up by a bunch of 50 cal ammo cans and 120mm mortar cans, flexing due to temperature/pressure changes.... Been there, done that, got the T-shirt... and the adrenaline fueled sleepless nights after being woken up by them...
 

Another Ahab

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You do NOT want to be woken up by a bunch of 50 cal ammo cans and 120mm mortar cans, flexing due to temperature/pressure changes.... Been there, done that, got the T-shirt... and the adrenaline fueled sleepless nights after being woken up by them...
I wasn't so sure that it might be an actual issue (just guessing).

But you made it clear, TechnoWeenie, that it sure is, who knew?!
 
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