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Synthetic Fluids

phat6

New member
26
1
3
Location
Jasper, IN
Talk about sticker shock--ever priced out changing an M925A2 over to full synthetic, top-to-bottom, front-to-rear? Also have not been able to find a consolidated run-down on the fluids, but this is what I gather from the bits and pieces. Looks like I could go all Mobil 1 or all Royal Purple:


  • Engine Oil
    • 20 Quarts
    • Mobil 1 0W-30 - $5/Quart in 5 Quart Size (Wal-Mart)
      • Update: Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel only one that meets API CJ-4
    • Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5W-30 - $5.50/Quart in 5 Quart Size (Wal-Mart)
      • Update: Does Not Meet API CJ-4
    • Royal Purple HPS 5W-30, 5 gallon, PN: 35530 - $163.40 (Jegs)
      • Update: Royal Purple 15W-40 only one that meets API CJ-4
    • Update: Look like I am going with Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel
  • Transmission
    • Total Capacity: 25 Quarts
    • Drain & Refill: 19 Quarts
    • Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF - $11/Quart
    • Royal Purple Max ATF, 5 gallon, PN: 05320 - $263.79 (Jegs)
  • Transfer Case
    • 6.5 Quarts
    • Mobil 1 75W-90 - $11/Quart
    • Royal Purple Max Gear 75W-90, 5 gallon, PN: 05300 - $287.38 (Jegs)
  • Differentials
    • 12 Quarts (each), so 36 Quarts
    • Mobil 1 75W-90
    • Royal Purple Max Gear 75W-90, 5 gallon, PN: 05300
  • Power Steering Fluid
    • 3 Quarts
    • Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF
    • Royal Purple Max ATF, 5 gallon, PN: 05320
  • Hydraulic System
    • 32 Quarts
    • Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF
    • Royal Purple Max ATF, 5 gallon, PN: 05320
  • Winch Gear Case
    • 2.6 Pints
    • Mobil 1 75W-90
    • Royal Purple Max Gear 75W-90, 5 gallon, PN: 05300
  • Grease Points / Zerks
    • Mobil 1 Synthetic Grease - $7/tube
    • Royal Purple Ultra-Performance Grease - $9/tube
  • Coolant
    • 40 Quarts
    • Evans Heavy Duty Waterless Coolant - $48/Gallon


  • Grand Total: (Mobil 1 / Royal Purple)
    • Motor Oil: 20 quarts - $100 / $164
    • ATF: 60 Quarts - $660 / $792
    • Gear Oil: 44 Quarts - $484 / $632
    • Grease: 5 Tubes (Guessing) - $35 / $45
    • Mobil 1 = $1,279, Royal Purple = $1,633
    • Evans Coolant = $384

~$2k . . . like zoiks, Scoob!
 
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HASSON1911

Member
748
24
18
Location
roseau/mn
Dont buy any oils or lubricants in less than 40 gal at a time, you will save a lot of money...in the long run, even more if you know mechanic that can get it for you for shop price. My 2 cents
 

wreckerman893

Possum Connoisseur
15,629
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113
Location
Akenback acres near Gadsden, AL
The M923A2 I picked up yesterday was drained of all fluids. I dropped a few hundred bucks today on anti-freeze, Rotella and Dextron 3. I called one of the big transmission shops in town that serviced our Dodge a while back and he told me that synthetic transmission fluid was a waste of money in the older Allisons. He said Dex 3 was fine or 10 weight oil.
 

jdknech

Active member
1,095
6
38
Location
Jeffersonville, Indiana
in the older trucks like ours, I dont see a point to changing it all over to synthetic oils... and STAY AWAY fron amsoil!! it will eat the seals out of whatever it is in.. (on older style seals) I learned this the hard way, and tosted a NV6500 trans, and a transfer-case, and had to re-gasket the engine in a dodge 3500 diesel..
 

Gunzy

Well-known member
1,769
66
48
Location
Roy, Utah
I don't see a valid reason to go full synthetic oils in the 5 tons or any MV unless you are using it commercially and racking up miles like mad. Even then it may not be of much value. JMHO
 

M35A2-AZ

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,222
392
83
Location
Tonopah, AZ
Thanks for all the info on the fluids!!
But that is way to much to put out on the trucks.
I think it is just best to not change the fluids around that have been working in the trucks.
But that is just my 2cent and my old thinking.
 

doghead

4 Star General /Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
26,246
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Location
NY
I'd rather spend my money on...

Nitrogen in the tires to get rid of that low performance air.

Carbon Fiber troop seats, uprights and bows.

Billet aluminum brake, clutch and throttle pedals.

Re machining all SAE threads to Metric.

And finally, adding cooling fins to the cylinders and heads to elimate the chance of a coolant leak(full air cooled conversion).
 

wreckerman893

Possum Connoisseur
15,629
2,054
113
Location
Akenback acres near Gadsden, AL
I'd rather spend my money on...

Nitrogen in the tires to get rid of that low performance air.

Carbon Fiber troop seats, uprights and bows.

Billet aluminum brake, clutch and throttle pedals.

Re machining all SAE threads to Metric.

And finally, adding cooling fins to the cylinders and heads to elimate the chance of a coolant leak(full air cooled conversion).
Helium is much better in the tires and actually offsets some of the weight of the truck if you have the super singles.:idea:

You're a funny guy when you been drinking.rofl
 

doghead

4 Star General /Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
26,246
1,179
113
Location
NY
I dranks some rainx once.

Sweat beaded up on my forehead!
 

zout

In Memorial
In Memorial
7,744
154
63
Location
Columbus Georgia
I betcha something came out faster as well if he drank it -

I will oblige and post something pertinent to the thread:
I do use Mystic 15w40 JT8 engine oil which is semi synthetic oil - price I pay on it is $10.10 per gallon. And I use a very good grease called HiTack - its red and stickier than booggers.
 

Mercunimog404

Banned
352
1
0
Location
Carson City/Nevada
in the older trucks like ours, I dont see a point to changing it all over to synthetic oils... and STAY AWAY fron amsoil!! it will eat the seals out of whatever it is in.. (on older style seals) I learned this the hard way, and tosted a NV6500 trans, and a transfer-case, and had to re-gasket the engine in a dodge 3500 diesel..
No it doesn't. There was an underlying issue with your drivetrain.
 

phat6

New member
26
1
3
Location
Jasper, IN
Filters

According to the Cummins Engine site, these are the filters listed for the engine:

[h=2]General Information[/h] TOC
Fleetguard is a subsidiary of Cummins Inc. Fleetguard® filters are developed through joint testing at Cummins and Fleetguard®. Fleetguard® filters are standard on new Cummins engines. Cummins Inc. recommends their use.
Fleetguard products meet all Cummins Source Approval Test standards to provide the quality filtration necessary to achieve the engine's design life. If other brands are substituted, insist on products that the supplier has tested to meet Cummins high-quality standards.
Cummins can not be responsible for problems caused by nongenuine filters that do not meet Cummins performance or durability requirements.
[h=4]Fuel Filters[/h] Fuel Filter:

  • Cummins Part Number 3931063
  • Fleetguard® Part Number FF5052.
Fuel-Water Separator:

  • Cummins Part Number 3930942
  • Fleetguard® Part Number FS1280.
[h=4]Lubricating Oil Filter[/h]
  • Cummins Part Number 3401544
  • Fleetguard® Part Number LF9009.
 

phat6

New member
26
1
3
Location
Jasper, IN
Also found this info about coolant and additives:

[h=2]Fully Formulated Coolant/Antifreeze[/h] TOC
Cummins, Inc. recommends using either a 50/50 mixture of high-quality water and fully formulated antifreeze or fully formulated coolant when filling the cooling system. The fully formulated antifreeze or coolant must meet TMC RP 329 or TMC RP 330 specifications.

SMALL | MEDIUM | LARGE



CAUTION


High-quality water is important for cooling system performance. Excessive levels of calcium and magnesium contribute to scaling problems, and excessive levels of chlorides and sulfates cause cooling system corrosion.

SMALL | MEDIUM | LARGE


Cummins, Inc. recommends using Fleetguard® Compleat. It is available in both glycol forms (ethylene and propylene) and complies with TMC standards.

SMALL | MEDIUM | LARGE


Fully formulated antifreeze must be mixed with high-quality water at a 50/50 ratio (40- to 60-percent working range). A 50/50 mixture of antifreeze and water has a -36°C [-33°F] freezing point and a 108°C [226°F] boiling point, which is adequate for North America. The actual lowest freezing point of ethylene glycol antifreeze is at 68 percent. Using higher concentrations of antifreeze will raise the freezing point of the solution and increase the possibility of a silicate gel problem.
[h=4]Legend[/h]
  1. [h=4]Legend[/h]
  2. Freezing Point Temperature Scale
  3. Boiling Point Temperature Scale

SMALL | MEDIUM | LARGE


A refractometer must be used to measure the freezing point of the coolant accurately.

SMALL | MEDIUM | LARGE


Do not use a floating ball hydrometer. Use of a floating ball hydrometer can give an incorrect reading.

SMALL | MEDIUM | LARGE


Specifications
Use a low-silicate antifreeze that meets ASTM4985 test (GM6038M specification) criteria.
Concentration
Antifreeze must be used in any climate for both freezing- and boiling-point protection. Cummins Inc. recommends a 50-percent concentration level (40- to 60-percent range) of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol in most climates. Antifreeze at 68-percent concentration provides the maximum freeze protection and must never be exceeded under any condition. Antifreeze protection decreases above 68 percent.
Ethylene Glycol
Propylene Glycol
40% equals -23°C [-9°F]
40% equals -21°C [-6°F]
50% equals -37°C [-35°F]
50% equals -33°C [-27°F]
60% equals -54°C [-65°F]
60% equals -49°C [-56°F]
68% equals -71°C [-96°F]
68% equals -63°C [-81°F]
Concentration Testing
Antifreeze concentration must be checked using a refractometer (such as Fleetguard® Part No. CC2800). "Floating-Ball"-type density testers or hydrometers are not accurate enough for use with heavy-duty diesel cooling systems.
Coolant Change Recommendation
The coolant must be drained and replaced every 2 years or 385,000 km [239,227 mi] to eliminate buildup of harmful chemicals.



[h=2]Cooling System Additives[/h] TOC
[h=4]Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA)[/h] Supplemental coolant additives (SCA) are recommended for all Cummins Inc. cooling systems. Antifreeze alone does not provide sufficient protection for heavy-duty diesel engines.
DCA4
DCA4 is the recommended SCA for all Cummins Inc. engines. Other brands can be used if they provide adequate engine protection and do not cause seal or gasket degradation or corrosion/fouling.
SCA Concentration
The recommended concentration level of DCA4 is 1.5 units for every 3.7 liters [1 gal]. The DCA4 concentration must never exceed 3.0 units for every 3.7 liters [1 gal] nor fall below 1.2 units for every 3.7 liters [1 gal].
DCA4 Filter Change Interval
Supplemental coolant additives deplete during normal engine operation. Cummins Inc. recommends that the level be maintained by installation of a service coolant filter on the engine at every 10,000-km [6214 mi], 250-hours, or 3-month interval.
DCA4 Concentration Test
As noted above, the primary method is to maintain proper DCA4 concentration levels by changing the service coolant filter at every 10,000 km [6214 mi], 250 hours, or 3 months. Fleetguard® DCA4 “dipstick” test kit, Part No. CC2626, or Fleetguard® Monitor C™, Part No. CC2700, must be used if testing is deemed necessary due to one of the following reasons:

  • Addition of untreated make-up coolant in excess of 5.7 liters [6 qt] between maintenance intervals
  • Troubleshooting of cooling system problems in the fleet (such as corrosion or seal leakage)
  • An optional program in some fleets to monitor SCA levels to determine if maintenance intervals are acceptable.
[h=4]NOTE: The practice of using a test kit to determine when to add or change the coolant filter is specifically not recommended. No other test kit (such as Fleetguard® titration test kit, Part No. 3300846-S or 3825379-S) can be used on Cummins engines with DCA4.[/h] DCA4 Unit Maintenance Guide
Fleetguard® Part No.
Cummins Part No.
DCA4 Units
DCA4 Liquid
DCA 60L
3315459
4*
DCA4 Filter
WF-2070
3318157
2
WF-2071
3315116
4
WF-2072
3318201
6
WF-2073
3315115
8
WF-2074
3316053
12
WF-2077
None
0
*If DCA 60L is used, do not use a coolant filter that contains coolant additives. The combination of liquid and filter coolant additives will result in overconcentration.
DCA4 Maintenance Guide
Maintenance Intervals
Total Cooling System Capacity
Initial Charge (B)
10,000 km [6000 mi], 250 Hours, or 3 Months
30 to 57 liters [8 to 15 gal]
WF-2074
WF-2070
Notes:

  1. Consult the vehicle equipment manufacturer's maintenance information for the total cooling system capacity.
  2. After draining and replacing the coolant, install the initial per-charge coolant filter to provide the recommended level of DCA4 concentration.
  3. Change the coolant filter at regular intervals to protect the cooling system.
  4. Check the coolant additive concentration regularly. Check the cooling system using Fleetguard® DCA4 only with DCA4 coolant test kit, Part No.CC-2626.



[h=2]Cooling System Sealing Additives[/h] TOC
Do not use sealing additives in the cooling system. The use of sealing additives will

  • Build up in coolant low-flow areas
  • Clog coolant filters
  • Plug radiator and oil cooler
  • Possibly damage water pump seal.

SMALL | MEDIUM | LARGE





[h=2]Cooling System Soluble Oils[/h] TOC
Do not use soluble oils in the cooling system. The use of soluble oils will

  • Allow cylinder liner pitting
  • Corrode brass and copper
  • Damage heat transfer surfaces
  • Damage seals and hoses.

SMALL | MEDIUM | LARGE




Last Modified: 13-Dec-2011
 

phat6

New member
26
1
3
Location
Jasper, IN
According to Evans Cooling website, no additives are necessary when using their Heavy Duty Waterless Coolant. The claim is there is no water in the coolant, therefore cavitation is not an issue at the temperatures the engine will operate:



[h=2]10-06-2009: Evans Reports Waterless Coolant Proved Superior in ASTM-Approved Cavitation Test[/h] News » Press Releases » 10-06-2009: Evans Reports Waterless Coolant Proved Superior in ASTM-Approved Cavitation Test

Evans Waterless Hails Findings of John Deere Coolant Cavitation Test
SUFFIELD, Conn. - October 6, 2009 - Evans Cooling Systems hailed the findings of the ASTM D7583 Standard Test Method for the John Deere Coolant Cavitation Test, reporting that its waterless engine coolant achieved results that cannot be matched by any water-based coolant. Evans is the developer of the only commercial waterless engine coolants.
The 250 hour engine dynamometer test, developed to determine the ability of various coolants to resist engine cylinder liner cavitation erosion, was recently approved by ASTM International as a Standard Test Method. Official approval came October 2, 2009, culminating years of coolant testing performed according to the method. Many coolants were tested during the trial period, including Evans Waterless Heavy Duty Thermal Coolant (HDTC). The testing itself is performed by the Southwest Research Institute, an independent, nonprofit applied research and development organization in San Antonio, TX.
Cylinder liner cavitation erosion, the formation of pits that penetrate into cylinder liners from the coolant side, is the most difficult corrosion problem for heavy duty engines. The consequence of cavitation erosion damage can mean a complete rebuild of the engine. Whether cavitation erosion occurs or not depends upon the formulation of the coolant used.
"The establishment of ASTM D7583 is an important milestone for determining how well individual coolants protect against cavitation erosion of cylinder liners, and we're very pleased to have excelled in this ASTM-approved John Deere Coolant Cavitation Test," said Thomas Light, Chief Engineer of Evans Cooling Systems. "We believe our coolants' low count -- 21 pits - is lower than any other coolant would achieve."
Evans Waterless HDTC boils at 375⁰F and protects to below -40⁰F, which is an advantage because HDTC is operated much colder than its boiling point. This is, in contrast to water-based coolants that are all operated close to their boiling points. Cavitation erosion comes from the repeated formation and collapse of coolant vapor, and because it is waterless, HDTC doesn't create vapor.
Evans HDTC is based on the company's patented waterless coolant technology, and is designed for vehicles and equipment powered by heavy duty diesel engines. The huge separation between the boiling point of HDTC and its operating temperature permit engines to operate safely at higher than conventional temperatures and enable fuel saving strategies that include higher temperature thermostats and reduced fan-on time.
HDTC is a lifetime coolant that never needs replacement as long as contamination by water is avoided. No coolant maintenance and no SCAs are required. There is less stress on hoses and other plumbing because, with HDTC, the system pressure is lower due to no vapor component.
For more information on Evans waterless coolants, visit the Evans website at www.evanscooling.com, or call +1.860.668.1114.
About Evans Cooling Systems, Inc.
Evans Cooling Systems, Inc., with headquarters and R&D facilities in Sharon, Conn., has focused on engine cooling and related areas for over 35 years. The company has a distribution center, as well as a team of high performance engine cooling experts based in Pottstown, Penn., a heavy duty diesel sales and marketing office in Suffield, Conn., as well as facilities in China. Evans is committed to maintaining a cleaner, safer environment, and continually seeks to improve product and process choices for many heavy duty diesel, high performance and mainstream engine applications. Evans waterless engine cooling technology is used today by numerous fleets, with trials in process at major carriers worldwide. www.evanscooling.com, +1.860.668.1114.
Media Contact:
Paul Hughes, Topaz Partners
Phone: +1.781.404.2416
Email: Evans@topazpartners.com
 
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