***URGENT*** MEP 803a set-up question ***SOLVED***

[Evvy Fesler]

Yes Sir everything has been addressed.
Trying to figure out how to upload a thank you video for everyone who contributed and who may be interested.

I use DropBox or OneDrive where I can get a link and post it.

 

[Guyfang]

I could tell you a story about a lineman I met in a hospital, in Calif. in 1968 or 69. Both arms burnt off to the elbows. That impressed this 17 year old simpleton, to no end.

 

[Islandfarmer]

Thank you all!

 

[peapvp]

I could tell you a story about a lineman I met in a hospital, in Calif. in 1968 or 69. Both arms burnt off to the elbows. That impressed this 17 year old simpleton, to no end.

Guy, I understand. They lineman is “lucky” that he survived this even thou he lost both of his forearms…….

I had a guy years ago working at a telephone switch center in Stuttgart owned by the Deutsche Bundespost and he used an non insulated pair of side cutters which he placed on top of the two DC rails which carry positive grounded 60VDC at 1000 Amps.
Needles to say, the pliers vaporized as soon as they touched the copper bars and he got the vaporized metal dust on his eyes which blinded him completely for live.

I got a few other stories unfortunately like this which I will spare you.

Heed the warnings folks from people who have been around the block of couple of times…….

Peter

 

[Islandfarmer]

One more thing. You have aluminum wire on copper connectors. Even if the connectors are AL/CU it’s best to put compound on them. If you can get some. I understand your situation. If you can’t get some be sure to inspect the connections for oxidation every couple of weeks.

The reason they wanted you to isolate the neutral in the service disconnect is that if there’s a short the generator can back feed power to the grid on the neutral and then a lineman comes along to repair the line they could be hurt. They’re expecting the line to be dead and safe. In emergency situations like this it’s also quite possible that the grid becomes energized and shorts to neutral and forward feeds to your disconnect switch box. Again dangerous. When things are in disarray you have to assume that anything can happen and take extra precautionary steps to isolate your house to just you and your equipment. And by all means label the disconnect and lock it up so that a lineman or anyone else doesn’t accidentally open it and flip that circuit breaker should you not be there.

Understood.

Every one wants to be able to go home at the end of the day.

 

[Evvy Fesler]

Understood.

Every one wants to be able to go home at the end of the day.

I think that everyone here will allow me to speak for them when I say that we appreciate that and we want you to know that we also appreciate y'all in Florida, especially around your area, for what you've been through and no doubt what will be a long road to get back to normal.

 

[peapvp]

@Islandfarmer I hope your meat and antivenin didn’t defrost to much.
In these situations it is always better to have one or two extra sets of gensets around if the wallet permits it.

We wish you and everybody else a speedy recovery.
Peter

 

[Guyfang]

Guy, I understand. They lineman is “lucky” that he survived this even thou he lost both of his forearms…….

I had a guy years ago working at a telephone switch center in Stuttgart owned by the Deutsche Bundespost and he used an non insulated pair of side cutters which he placed on top of the two DC rails which carry positive grounded 60VDC at 1000 Amps.
Needles to say, the pliers vaporized as soon as they touched the copper bars and he got the vaporized metal dust on his eyes which blinded him completely for live.

I got a few other stories unfortunately like this which I will spare you.

Heed the warnings folks from people who have been around the block of couple of times…….

Peter

The same thing happened to me. I was lucky. In my first year of apprenticeship here, we had a problem with a manual three phase circuit breaker. It was for our concrete mixing plant. I thin the fuses were about 800 Amp. The CB was loose, and a connection had gotten hot, melted the plastic and was not making good connection. My Meister, (Master Electrician) Was a young buck. He had worked for the power company, and gone from there to the large company where I was apprenticed. We needed to change the CB, and he did not want to shut off power to half the town of Weismain, to do it. He would have to shut off the power to the company HQ, and the Big Bosses house. So he brought in some insulated tools, and said "We would change the CB under power." We meant me. No one else wanted to do it, as they knew and UNDERSTOOD, what was going on here. And I had never turned down a job. Working on a crane, 60 meters tall or higher? Working on the side of a building, 40-50 meters high? Working on indoor cranes, walking around 30-meters above the plant? No problem. Guy was always ready. Scared? You bet. But if the Meister was with me, well, if he would, I would. I pulled the CB down, took out the fuses. Then we went to the back side of the transformer house, and He gave me the ratchet, and told me to loosen the attaching bolts/nuts and the he would take the CB out of its frame, put the new one in, and I would tighten it back up, with the insulated ratchet. No safety gear other then then rubber gloves and insulated tools. The part of my schooling that would have educated me to how wrong this all was, came in the second year of the course. When everyone moved away from me, or flat out walked out, it began to dawn on me. I started to sweat like a pig on the way to the butcher's. I took it slow, and everything went as planned. I tightened the last bolt/nut, on the CB, and was pulling the ratchet and extension out of the back side of the CB. Now, the socket, was the only part of the gear NOT insulated. I almost had it clear of everything, when the socket hung on something, and fell off the extension. I watched it bounce on the L1 rail. The rail was 4 inches wide, 1.5 inch thick and 2-3 meters long. It hit the rail, and fell down in between the L2 and L3 rails. If you have never seen an electric arc, of this magnitude, there is no real way to describe it. Its a thing of beauty. So bright, so clear, so intense, that only maybe a nuke burst would top it. But the most scary thing is the sound. Its like nothing you should ever hear in your life. It sounds like a child who has screamed because his legs have just been crushed, or maybe had his hand ripped off. A sound to chill your bones. The vaporized metal dust, (Plasma) hit me in the face and upper chest. The only thing that saved my eyes is that I wear thick glasses, and have always liked big wide lenses. Of course I had a killer sunburn. And my skin felt like sand paper. Oh, yeah, I was blind. All I could see, with eyes open or closed, was an Incredible Orange Red. Just that. I froze in place, as I still had the ratchet and extension in my hands. The only thing going through my head was DO NOT MOVE. The silence was Incredible. The Meister said, "Guy, are you all right?" I said, "Jürgen, when I can see, I am going to fu****g kill you." He left. My mentor came in, eased me back, and guided me outside. I sat down. Pants wet. I waited a long time. The first respondier's showed up and took me away. Did nice things to me and my eyes. My glasses could have been used to file steel bars. I could not see well until the next day, and my eyes hurt a while. Every time I have gone into a transformer/sub station since then, and it took a long time before I could, the whole stupid episode plays in my head, and not just once.

 

[peapvp]

The same thing happened to me. I was lucky. In my first year of apprenticeship here, we had a problem with a manual three phase circuit breaker. It was for our concrete mixing plant. I thin the fuses were about 800 Amp. The CB was loose, and a connection had gotten hot, melted the plastic and was not making good connection. My Meister, (Master Electrician) Was a young buck. He had worked for the power company, and gone from there to the large company where I was apprenticed. We needed to change the CB, and he did not want to shut off power to half the town of Weismain, to do it. He would have to shut off the power to the company HQ, and the Big Bosses house. So he brought in some insulated tools, and said "We would change the CB under power." We meant me. No one else wanted to do it, as they knew and UNDERSTOOD, what was going on here. And I had never turned down a job. Working on a crane, 60 meters tall or higher? Working on the side of a building, 40-50 meters high? Working on indoor cranes, walking around 30-meters above the plant? No problem. Guy was always ready. Scared? You bet. But if the Meister was with me, well, if he would, I would. I pulled the CB down, took out the fuses. Then we went to the back side of the transformer house, and He gave me the ratchet, and told me to loosen the attaching bolts/nuts and the he would take the CB out of its frame, put the new one in, and I would tighten it back up, with the insulated ratchet. No safety gear other then then rubber gloves and insulated tools. The part of my schooling that would have educated me to how wrong this all was, came in the second year of the course. When everyone moved away from me, or flat out walked out, it began to dawn on me. I started to sweat like a pig on the way to the butcher's. I took it slow, and everything went as planned. I tightened the last bolt/nut, on the CB, and was pulling the ratchet and extension out of the back side of the CB. Now, the socket, was the only part of the gear NOT insulated. I almost had it clear of everything, when the socket hung on something, and fell off the extension. I watched it bounce on the L1 rail. The rail was 4 inches wide, 1.5 inch thick and 2-3 meters long. It hit the rail, and fell down in between the L2 and L3 rails. If you have never seen an electric arc, of this magnitude, there is no real way to describe it. Its a thing of beauty. So bright, so clear, so intense, that only maybe a nuke burst would top it. But the most scary thing is the sound. Its like nothing you should ever hear in your life. It sounds like a child who has screamed because his legs have just been crushed, or maybe had his hand ripped off. A sound to chill your bones. The vaporized metal dust, (Plasma) hit me in the face and upper chest. The only thing that saved my eyes is that I wear thick glasses, and have always liked big wide lenses. Of course I had a killer sunburn. And my skin felt like sand paper. Oh, yeah, I was blind. All I could see, with eyes open or closed, was an Incredible Orange Red. Just that. I froze in place, as I still had the ratchet and extension in my hands. The only thing going through my head was DO NOT MOVE. The silence was Incredible. The Meister said, "Guy, are you all right?" I said, "Jürgen, when I can see, I am going to fu****g kill you." He left. My mentor came in, eased me back, and guided me outside. I sat down. Pants wet. I waited a long time. The first respondier's showed up and took me away. Did nice things to me and my eyes. My glasses could have been used to file steel bars. I could not see well until the next day, and my eyes hurt a while. Every time I have gone into a transformer/sub station since then, and it took a long time before I could, the whole stupid episode plays in my head, and not just once.

Guy, glad you recovered from this - no Glases and you would be typing in Braille.
In my case, the person working was fully in charge of the situation and he had the correct tools with him. He had left them in his service vehicle, to lazy to go back out and get the correct toolbox which he needed for the job. He wasn’t young anymore and he knew from experience that he needed the insulated tools.
Btw. they have fully insulated sockets as well, besides ratchet and extensions…….
Peter

 

[Guyfang]

A few weeks later, the Meister bought all the things we needed to do such work. Little late in the ball game for me. I could STILL use an axe handle on his head.

 

[peapvp]

A few weeks later, the Meister bought all the things we needed to do such work. Little late in the ball game for me. I could STILL use an axe handle on his head.

Guy, I would have gathered all 3/8 extensions, as many as I could find, insulated and non-insulated and would have shuffled them up his catookus…….

 

[Lostchain]

The reason they wanted you to isolate the neutral in the service disconnect is that if there’s a short the generator can back feed power to the grid on the neutral and then a lineman comes along to repair the line they could be hurt. They’re expecting the line to be dead and safe. In emergency situations like this it’s also quite possible that the grid becomes energized and shorts to neutral and forward feeds to your disconnect switch box. Again dangerous. When things are in disarray you have to assume that anything can happen and take extra precautionary steps to isolate your house to just you and your equipment. And by all means label the disconnect and lock it up so that a lineman or anyone else doesn’t accidentally open it and flip that circuit breaker should you not be there.

In the situation where neutral is bonded to ground in your panel, and then again at the utility pole, how likely is it that a fault in the generator on the neutral would propagate?

 

[NY Tom]

The same thing happened to me. I was lucky. In my first year of apprenticeship here, we had a problem with a manual three phase circuit breaker. It was for our concrete mixing plant. I thin the fuses were about 800 Amp. The CB was loose, and a connection had gotten hot, melted the plastic and was not making good connection.

Crazy story thanks for sharing. Out of curiosity, did the replacement go successfully otherwise?

I have seen guys changing out CB under power at work, using all safety precautions and everything went OK. I am always nervous working on things like that which are live but sometimes it needs to be done carefully.

 

[Guyfang]

Well, since we blew out two fuses, (L2 & L3) and kicked off the power in town, someone, not me, went back in and made sure everything was done right.

 

[NY Tom]

Wow I was curious if the socket could have been vaporized before the short tripped out anything bigger than what you were already working on.

 

[Evvy Fesler]

In the situation where neutral is bonded to ground in your panel, and then again at the utility pole, how likely is it that a fault in the generator on the neutral would propagate?

Slim to none, but then again, in a grid wrecked by a hurricane, how likely is it that the line is open at the utility pole? We could be predict odds all day long but is the theoretical exercise of it worth the life of a lineman? So we err on the side of abundant caution.