WA / OR non-CDL guys

[Amer-team]

Your point is well taken and shows the arbitrary side of our legal system. I haven't licensed my 45 jeep trailer in probably 12 or better years. The only time it comes out is for events and the State Patrol usually drive by and wave.

I was stopped two years ago in Oregon, two evenings in a row for not having two lights on the back of the M38A1. One stop was by a city officer and the other by the state patrol and they had a heck of a time dealing with an out of state licensed historic vehicle. I asked the State Patrolman how it came back in their system and he said he could not even get it to come up, so he gave up. PS, no tickets were issued. I keep a copy of the state codes pertaining to historic vehicles in the glove box, in case there are any issues, so it can be handed to the officer for reading.

 

[Stan Leschert]

Wow! I'm glad that I live up north! Yes I do have what you call a CDL. Up here you may register your vehicle for a lower capacity weight. As long as you do not exceed it, you're cool. As for the weigh scales, I ALWAYS report and run through the unloaded lane. The scale ops could not care less about me, but the MOT commercial vehicle inspectors get mighty pissy, if they think that you are trying to avoid them. Yes, we have a whole bunch of fresh university grads who have a whole whack of education, but very little practical knowledge. We finally got tough on vehicle regs, after a group of new Canadians thought that anything would go! As a result we have many learned persons without propoer judgement. I don't mind. If it's not safe, it should not run. Don't give them a reason to question and conduct yourself in the maner expected of a CDL holder. Perfessonal! YUP! Last week i couldn't spell it, now i are won! Just joking. They make the laws, It is up to us to not give them a reason to over enforce them. Our trucks are big, and we have to operate them in the safest manner. Just one smash, and we will be covered in WMO and other stuff!

 

[DanMartin]

Wow...I had to do exactly *none* of the above to register my Deuce in Oregon. And I registered it at full capacity.

I did need to get "T" plates (truck plates) for it, which cost about $225 a year (yes, a year), but I do not need a CDL to drive it. The cut-off in Oregon is 26K lbs...the deuce is technically 23.5K rated, so it's all good. A 5 ton (as the original poster mentioned) is a different beast, but there is an exception in Oregon for "Personal Use" for vehicles over that 26K limit (as well as farm vehicles, etc).

Here's the actual Oregon text from the ODOT website: Oregon DMV Getting a Commercial Driver License (CDL)

 

[Amer-team]

With the historic plates, I never have to license the 5 ton again. If someone buys it, they will also have to license it one time. It was a bit of a struggle to get the inspection and get the paperwork done, but you only have to do it once.

Some of the older vehicle inspectors know and understand the MV's and they are a pleasure to deal with.

When licensing the 42 MB, I had a younger woman inspector. We are required when doing a new license to get a weight slip, I have been able to show them the weight out of the table in the TM and they have accepted that. But the jeep had a 11/42 manufacture date. So the lady writes out the slip and it says 1943. I told her that there was a minor mistake, it was a 42 and she assured me that it was a 43, even though the original data plate showed 42. She then said anything built after October was a 43. I differed. She ended up calling a senior inspector and it is now licensed as a 42.

I wanted to clear up a title issue on the 42 GPW when licensing it as historic. The data plate was a bit damaged. They had called it a GPA on the title and listed the Gross weight as the serial number. So had to get it inspected. Had a heck of a time convincing the guy that it really was not a GPA, but I wished it was and using the data plate and an original TM convinced him which was the serial number and which was the weight. Fortunately the frame number matched.

Sometimes the hurdles are high, but once you get over, you are over.

Happy driving.

 

[eldgenb]

Just did my 816 today and same as before, walked in, quoted a make, body type, and weight and walked out with a registration as a historic, no mileage restriction just (common sense) is what she told me, no daily driving.

 

[paulfarber]

Does you state have different classes of non-CDL licenses?

In PA:

PennDOT Driver and Vehicle Services - Classes of Licenses
Non-commercial Driver's Licenses

• CLASS A (minimum age 1: Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds).

Class B and C cover less GWs. Most 'car/trucks' are Class C.

I still stand by the fact that you do not need a CDL unless you are in COMMERCIAL use.... and in PA that is very true.

 

[datsunaholic]

If Washington has a Non-Commercial Class A license, they're doing a good job of hiding it. There's nothing in the state DOL or RCWs about non-commercial "Classed" licenses, and the only endorsement I can find is a Motorcycle endorsement. Intent or purpose doesn't enter into it in Washington State law- doesn't matter if you're commercial or driving to a parade- if it's 26001 or more, it needs a CDL. The only exceptions in Washington State law are for active Farm use, Law Enforcement/firefighters on duty, and Recreational Vehicles. And recreational vehicles in Washington are specifically tagged on the titles and registration as such (on the Use Class field on the title).

I've heard some folks argue that "I'm not commercial so it's an RV". That doesn't fly here in WA. If you want to know what your vehicle classification is in Washington, just look at your title. D/COM and G/COM are commercial. D/MH, G/MH, those are RV codes. If it's 26000 or less GVR, then no CDL is needed under most circumstances. Above, it's ALWAYS needed except under defined exemptions. It's more strict than the Federal standard, less strict than the California laws.

 

[paulfarber]

Whats odd is that I can drive a truck of 26,001+ lbs without a CDL (but would need a Class 'A' license) in PA AND WA and not a thing WA can do about it.

You can not.

Federal CDL requirements are specifically worded to include in commercial use. States may write stricter laws, but why is another matter. Maybe all the port/cargo traffic requires a more stringent code? But its not like Phily or Erie don't see a fair amount of cargo.

If you want an answer write a letter to the WA DMV.

 

[datsunaholic]

The omission of "engaged in commerce" in the WA CDL requirements appears to have been done to keep folks from driving tandem tanker trucks around for "personal use". The wording is pretty specific, stating that occasional drivers (such as salespersons and mechanics, who aren't engaged in commerce), are still required to have CDLs.

The RV owners association and the equestrian associations have better (paid) lobbyists who ensured they got their exemptions, so that Grandpaw can drive his massive 3-axle Class-A Motorcoach towing a 20,000 lb Horse Trailer without a CDL. That and rental moving trucks.


Technically, the way the Washington law is written you can't tow a trailer over 2950 GVW with a Deuce without a CDL, because the GCVW would exceed 26,001. Legally I can drive my Deuce, and I can tow my 10K Gross trailer with my CUCV, without a CDL, but not the combination of the Deuce and the 10K trailer. In Washington 10K is the limit for a non-CDL trailer UNLESS it's a Horse Trailer or an RV trailer.

 

[SuperdutyTD]

The omission of "engaged in commerce" in the WA CDL requirements appears to have been done to keep folks from driving tandem tanker trucks around for "personal use". The wording is pretty specific, stating that occasional drivers (such as salespersons and mechanics, who aren't engaged in commerce), are still required to have CDLs.

The RV owners association and the equestrian associations have better (paid) lobbyists who ensured they got their exemptions, so that Grandpaw can drive his massive 3-axle Class-A Motorcoach towing a 20,000 lb Horse Trailer without a CDL. That and rental moving trucks.


Technically, the way the Washington law is written you can't tow a trailer over 2950 GVW with a Deuce without a CDL, because the GCVW would exceed 26,001. Legally I can drive my Deuce, and I can tow my 10K Gross trailer with my CUCV, without a CDL, but not the combination of the Deuce and the 10K trailer. In Washington 10K is the limit for a non-CDL trailer UNLESS it's a Horse Trailer or an RV trailer.

So if I'm towing a gooseneck trailer with a gvw of 14k with my superduty i'm supposed to have a cdl?

 

[Stalwart]

Yes TD, if you are doing it for hire. I don't stop at scales with my F450 at 35,500 GCVW even with a 26,500 lb trailer, I'm hauling all my own stuff and it's not for any commercial purpose. I do have a CDL, but that is because I had a truck that required one. Driving the HEMTT, I'm just not sure but I suspect not. Even in that, I don't stop at scales.

 

[datsunaholic]

I actually messed up there. You CAN tow a trailer over 10,000 without a CDL as long as the COMBINED GVW doesn't exceed 26,001. So as long as the Superduty doesn't have a GVW of 12,001 or more, you'd be OK.

The "interpretation" given by the Dept of Licensing has a hole in it- the situation where the combined gross is over 26,001 but the towed vehicle is under 10,001 and the towing vehicle is under 26,001. The RCW doesn't cover that, the DOL says you need it any time the GCVW exceeds 26,001. The RCW only applies if the towed vehicle is 10,001 or more.

---------
RCW 46.25.080 Sect 2 (paraphrased)

(a) Licenses may be classified as follows:

(i) Class A is a combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more, if the GVWR of the vehicle or vehicles being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

(ii) Class B is a single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more, and any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds.

(iii) Class C is a single vehicle with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds or any such vehicle towing a vehicle with a GVWR not in excess of 10,000 pounds consisting of:

(A) Vehicles designed to transport sixteen or more passengers, including the driver; or

(B) Vehicles used in the transportation of hazardous materials.



As a note, a buddy of mine got stopped for passing the scales on I-90 near Easton towing a 30' toy hauler (enclosed trailer full of his family's snowmobiles and gear) with his F350. The trailer was over 14,000 lbs, which caught the weigh-in-motion sensors in the roadway, and the State Partol chased him down. The trailer was rated for 15K, so he was legal, but they stated that any time the trailer weighs more than 10K you have to stop unless it's an RV. Since the toy hauler doesn't have bunks and a sink, it's not an RV.

 

[SuperdutyTD]

Yes TD, if you are doing it for hire. I don't stop at scales with my F450 at 35,500 GCVW even with a 26,500 lb trailer, I'm hauling all my own stuff and it's not for any commercial purpose. I do have a CDL, but that is because I had a truck that required one. Driving the HEMTT, I'm just not sure but I suspect not. Even in that, I don't stop at scales.

But if its private I'm ok?

 

[Stalwart]

You're right Datsun, I forgot to mention any of that.

A friend of ours who had an F350 and a flatbed gooseneck trailer for hauling his stuff stopped at a weigh station and asked and they told him he didn't need to stop. Some months later he was stopped passing the same weigh station, he being a former "Special Forces" and VERY serious guy, demanded that they "make up their dammed minds!" in a VERY unfriendly tone.

When I was hauling my former M656 on my trailer, 27,000 lb gross for the trailer, and 9500 lb truck, I got the "proceed to scale" light. I didn't and I'm not sure why they didn't stop me if what they told your friend is true. On my last run up to Mount Vernon in the HEMTT, WA I was given the same light to stop and again I didn't. On the way back all the other trucks, including the ones bob-tailing, were told to stop and I was told to bypass.

In our club we have a reciently retired WA State Patrol Officer and I asked him about it. He said to confirm, your truck? Your trailer? Your cargo? No commercial purpose for the trip? He told me there was no reason to stop at a scale. Kinda strange . . .

 

[SuperdutyTD]

How can a Toy Hauler not be an RV? They have sinks and beds?

 

[paulfarber]

Actually, the Constitutions Enumerated powers (supposedly) limits the Federal Gubment to regulation of Interstate Commerce. Technically they should not have the right to 'reach' inside a State with regulations. They can and do, but still need a nexus to Interstate commerce.

States on the other hand have no such limit on their powers.

For whatever reason the 'proper' answer would be write the WA DMV for a 'clarification' of the rule/law.

 

[OSO]

I had my 1953 M328 titled and got plates for it .Asked about Historical plates agent said only collector's plates . I weighed over 26,000lbs. I don't have to pay the yearly weight fee imposed on vechiles in WA state now.

 

[Amer-team]

So what is an M328? From the weight, could it be an M38A1? Anyway, you could also have found a license plate with a 1953 date and they would have licensed it with that plate. Both my 42 and 53 are licensed that way.

As for tonnage, the state gets a bit more grabby when it is going after 21,000 pounds as opposed to 2,600.

 

[OSO]

Sorry for the confusion on the weight listed . Edited previous post of mine.

 

[kurtkds]

Well I went to get plates for the 818 today and here's what I found out.

1. Because it says Tractor on the title it is automatically Commercial.

2. Scale weight empty is 19.5K makes it commercial and because of that the lowest Gross wight is 30k, calculated by taking empty weight X 1.5 then rounding up to the nearest 2k weight. So 19.5k X1.5 = 29.25k rounded up to 30k per WA regulations.

3. As of June 2009 above 26,001 requires a intrastate DOT number for commercial vehicles and that will be lowered to 16k in June 2012.

4. Even if I licensed as a historic vehicle I would still have to pay GVWR fees on 30k, but not be able to haul anything. (this is where they were starting to get confused on how to interpret the regulations).

5. XM818 is a commercial vehicle and requires a intrastate DOT number and a CDL to operate it in WA state even if it privately owned and doesn't haul anything.

6. The only option on the GVWR fees is to purchase them by the month for when you want to operate it.