WA / OR non-CDL guys

[srodocker]

what did you end up doing?

 

[rorybellows]

not sure if it was said yet, but if youre driving a vehicle with air brake, then you need a cdl. i know the deuce is air over hydraulic and doesnt require a cdl. not being familiar with older 5 tons (drove 900 series in army, which are all air) if theyre all air, then you need a cdl, regardless of commercial or not for hire

 

[kurtkds]

The XM818 is air over hydraulic like the Deuce. I ended going with a standard plates with a 30k gross.

DOT # to follow.

 

[datsunaholic]

not sure if it was said yet, but if youre driving a vehicle with air brake, then you need a cdl. i know the deuce is air over hydraulic and doesnt require a cdl. not being familiar with older 5 tons (drove 900 series in army, which are all air) if theyre all air, then you need a cdl, regardless of commercial or not for hire

Not according the the Washington RCW. The presence of air brakes doesn't automatically mean CDL.

 

[rorybellows]

ya but theres arent to many vehicles, if any, thats full air and under 26k. would be kinda pointless

 

[Hammer]

It is NOT air OVER hydraulic, it is air ASSIST. There is a big difference, as air over hydraulic DOES require an air brake endorsement, and the air assist does NOT require the endorsement.

Now, if you pull even a M105 that has the air over hydraulic brakes, that does require the endorsement.

 

[kurtkds]

Hammer, you caught me on that one. LOL

I know we had that conversation before.

Air over hydraulic = no air no brakes.

Air assist = no air, brakes are hard to use but are still there.

 

[sangamon]

In Washington state, a CDL is not required by drivers of vehicles with air brakes that don’t otherwise qualify as a commercial vehicle.

See "Who doesn’t need a CDL?" at the Washington Department of Licensing link: WA State Licensing: Who doesn't need a CDL?

Here's also another link which describes vehicles which need a driver with a CDL: WA State Licensing: Vehicles requiring a CDL

 

[Amer-team]

My truck is a 1968 M54. At Armed Forces Day last year a State Patrol Weights and Measure man came up to me and asked if I needed a CDL to drive that truck. I gulped and said I didn't think so because of the hydraulic brakes. He gave me a lecture. He was going quickly and I didn't follow it all, but the bottom line was that I did not need a CDL to drive that truck.

My truck is licensed as a restored vehicle. And from past experience they will usually get in your pocket the first time the truck is registered and licensed for everything plus tonnage. Then you get your historic plate and don't worry about it anymore.

It would also depend on what you are going to do with the truck. Is there going to be some commercial purposes or is it a Recreational vehicle? As for no load, they aren't talking about stuff that you are hauling for your military display.

A couple of years ago with the flooding we had, I hauled load after load of flood stuff from the neighborhood, to the transfer station in my collector vehicle licensed M715 and no one said a word.

Could they say something? Probably, but if you are doing good deeds and being responsible, probably no one will say anything.

 

[Stan Leschert]

It does not matter what kind of tags you have on the truck. If you exceed the GVRW or the barke type combinations, YOU MUST provide a DL which says that you have been certified as competent to drive said rig. That WILL NOT change. DOT / MOT have very clear rules on that. You can see by the number of pages that have been posted on this thread, the we have some confusion.

Here is a word to the wise. All it takes, it one MOT inspector, with a rule book, and his interpretation.

You just got a ticket, and maybe your rig seized. Time to plead insanity to the Judge, as ignorace is no longer a vaild defence.
If you got a big toy, just get the edorsement on your DL which says that you are certified competent to operate such.

It is way simpler, and you will have much less problems. Even those will go away quickly and cheaply.
Your choice, but this is my recommendation.

 

[cleb]

How much is the monthly fee in WA?

 

[Amer-team]

What monthly fee?

 

[wsucougarx]

Gosh, whenever I see this thread my minds starts a wandering about a 5 ton

 

[kurtkds]

If I understand the math on the Gross weight fees then it works out to be $23.75 per month for a 30k Gross.

You can buy the gross fees on a monthly basis if desired. So realistically it could be pretty cheap to license a 5 ton if you don't want to use it as a daily driver. LOL

Here is a better explanation how WA works on the Gross Weight fees.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistration/feechartvehweight.pdf

 

[dodgedougak]

Another option, depending on how many days/year you drive it. Buy a few 3 day trip permits (at about $25 ea.) If you only drive it a few weekends per year, you could come out money ahead and not have to declare GVW, pay weight fees, excise taxes, etc.

 

[NRG]

GUYS! You are doing this all wrong! Go get a historical vehicle plate or special interest plate if your vehicle is not old enough. Then when you want to use it outside of the limits of the historical/special interest plates, go get a 4 day temp tag. Those cost $10 or so bucks and there is no weight restrictions on the temp tags. I had a long talk with Oregon DMV about my truck and registering it. They said that I could get a temp tag whenever I wanted.

And to answer the other question, I just told DMV about approx weight of the truck, they didn't seem to care or try to prove me wrong.

 

[Ruppster]

For those of you who own MV's in WA or OR - most especially those who have 5 tons -

If I buy a 5 ton (M52A2) and go to register it as an antique vehicle - does the title you have for your truck specify GVWR on it or when you go to DMV can you state the gross weightthat goes on the registration papers ?

This is an important question for me to get answered because I don't want to re-test for a CDL (had a class A 20 years ago). The M52A2 w/w is 18,500 pounds empty - adding the cargo weight would put it over 26,000 - so if WA / OR have a GVWR over 26,000 on the registration paperwork then I have to get a CDL. And yes, I know you can bend the rules and all that, but I want to go STRICTLY by the book - can any of you guys tell me if the REGISTRATION paper and or title) you have for your truck has the GVWR on it or not and if so what it is ?

Many thanks.

Edit - both wanted info on both WA and OR because I just moved from OR to WA for work and may move back in a few years.

You have three different issues going on here; the vehicle's GVWR/GCWR, registration weight, and CDL or no CDL.

1.) GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) and GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating): GVWR is just the weight rating of the truck itself and is different from a truck's towing capability. It's based on the springs and axle weight capability of the vehicle. GCWR is the rating of the total hauling ability of the truck, both on board cargo and cargo on a trailer being pulled. Both GVWR and GCWR have nothing to do with registration weights. The ratings are normally used by DOT people at the scales to make sure you are using a vehicle that can handle the load you are hauling. The GVWR/GCWR are also used by DMV and Commercial Law Enforcement to establish CDL requirements.

2.) Registration weight: This is totally separate from CDL requirements and a vehicles GVWR and can be lower or higher then the GVWR. In most states if you get antique/classic tags this is a moot point as the plates usually don't list a registered weight rating. I say most states as Florida is one I know for sure that will give a yearly antique tag for trucks over 5,000 pounds empty weight but you still have to pay the weight fees up the the level of weight you plan on hauling. Anyhow, with a 5 ton truck that weighs around 19,000 pounds if you want to get regular tags in order to haul a couple thousand pounds all you have to do is tell DMV you want a registered weight that is different from the vehicle's GVWR. Just watch out as this must include any towed loads, not just cargo in the bed. If you register a 19,000 pound truck with weighted tags registered at 24,000 pounds you do not want to get caught at a scale with a truck or truck and trailer weighing over that 24,000 pound level as the fines can be rather high. If you don't plan on hauling up to the GVWR with a 5 ton truck with normal tags you don't have to register it for more then you will be hauling with it. Just because a truck has a weight rating of 30,000 plus pounds it does not mean you have to pay for tags at that level if you won't be hauling that much. Again, just don't exceed your registered weight or you will have a new bunch of problems.

3.) CDL or no CDL: This is the fun one as each state is different and DMV people can give a wide range of answers to this issue within a state. The guidelines set by the Feds is that a CDL is only needed if a vehicle is used in commerce (i.e. in the act of business to make money). There are exemptions from the Federal CDL requirement for private use (i.e. not for profit) and vehicles registered as RV's. What makes things a royal pain are two issues:

a.) Some states don't recognize the private use exemption set by the Feds and make you get a CDL for anything over 26,000 pounds GVWR (even if your registered weight is less then that). Or some states have a non-commercial class A or B license to cover large trucks being used for personal use.

b.) Most people within either DMV or a state's DOT don't always know the answers about CDL requirements when it comes to private use. If they tell you yes or no ask them for a copy of the rules that support that answer. When I first researched CDL requirements in Alaska I had the head of the local scale division tell me I didn't need a CDL if I was not for profit. The problem is he was wrong. What I didn't need to do was stop at scales, get a DOT number, a med card, or get annual inspections if I was not for hire, regardless of weight. But Alaska does not honor the not for hire exemption when it comes to CDL's so any truck (unless it's an RV) with a GVWR over 26,000 pounds requires a CDL in Alaska no matter if it's for hire or not. What added to the problem was when I called DMV about CDL requirements they said I had to have one regardless of use but could not tell me what State law set that rule. They kept saying it was a federal requirement (which was a total lie due to the federal exemption for personal use). It took several calls before I was put in touch with the Commercial Law Enforcement department of the State Troopers. The gent I talked to was able to give me the Alaskan state statute that defined the CDL requirements for Alaska and sure enough I needed a CDL even though I was not for hire.

The smartest thing to do is make a log of who you talked to when you research what your state needs and carry a copy of anything that shows the laws that don't apply to you. And ask what statutes or law sets the rules This way if you get stopped by Commercial Law Enforcement personnel you will have any proof you need to show them that they have no power over you. They are trained to handle trucks that are in commerce and many times they will treat you as such because of your weight rating and might not know how to handle a not for profit vehicle. So having state rules in print on your person can be a big help when trying to prove you are exempt.

Two other issues that weren't part of your question but I thought I would add are driving cross state lines and weigh scale requirements. I've driven personal use semi trucks and trailers cross country twice, once from Virginia to Florida and then from Florida to Washington state, and just a few months ago I drove from Alaska down to Washington and from there down to California with a final destination of Florida. When you have a vehicle with a GVWR over 26,000 pounds you are opening a big can of worms about permits when driving outside your state. With a vehicle that has a GVWR over 26,000 pounds things like IFTA (International Fuel Tax Agreement) and IRP (International Registration Plan) kick in when you drive out of your home state and there is no exemption if the vehicle is for personal use. Oregon was cool about it and said I didn't need fuel (IFTA) or temp registration (IRP) permits since I was not for hirer and Oregon was not part of IFTA in the first place (IFTA goes by GVWR only and does not give an exemption for personal use). But Washington was a whole other issue. They said I had to stop at scales due to weight (had a combined weight around 44,000 pounds) plus I had to buy permits for temp registration since I was not tagged under IRP (Alaska is not part of IRP). I ended up only having to stop at one scale in Washington, the one north of Seattle on I-5. When I crossed the scale I did not have DOT numbers or IFTA stickers so I got a red light and was told to park and report to the office. The person I dealt with only knew state law and was trying to enforce those laws on me. She told me I had to have a CDL and a med card even though I was registered out of state. I had proof that I did not need a med card as per federal and Alaska laws but that was not good enough. Washington law said I had to have it and that was that. If I had not gotten a med card before leaving Alaska I would have been given a $150 ticket all because she could not handle anything beyond her little world. I would have hated to see what would have happened had I not had a CDL (my last license was from Virginia and they follow the federal guidelines, you can drive any size truck in Virginia with a regular license as long as it's for personal use).

On my 2 trips cross country I went through many states and each one was different when it came to scales and permits. If you hit a scale and you aren't sure about the rules pull over before the scales and walk up to the scale house with your registration and insurance in hand. If they say you need permits you can get them before crossing the scales. I found this out the hard way the first time I drove out of Virginia with a truck and trailer. It cost me over $500 in fines at a scale house on I-95 in North Carolina for not having IFTA or IRP on my combined load of 32,000 pounds. I was registered for 40,000 pounds in Virginia but that was only good for Virginia. North Carolina nailed me good for that mistake. They told me had I stopped before the scale and bought the permits first I would have been okay. And since each state has their own rules about who does and does not need to stop at scales I got in to the habit of stopping at a scale each time I came across an open one even though I could have driven on by. They only see a big truck going by and will chase you down if they think you are trying to pull a fast when. And when they catch up to you they are usually not in a good mood. I would rather spend a few minutes at the scale house talking to them on my terms versus having to spent 10 to 20 minutes on the side of the road with a scale official that's got an attitude about me and is looking for something to nail me on because I proved him wrong.

Anyhow, back to part of you original question. The CDL requirement has nothing to do with your registration, whether it's an antique or a weighted tag of 25,000 pounds. The CDL goes by the actual GVWR (not the GCWR) of the vehicle in question and whether your state honors the federal exemption for personal use. If not you will need a CDL even if you register it for 25,000 pounds. Or you can convert it to an RV. That too is different for each state. I looked in to converting a semi truck to an RV in Alaska last year. Alaska required a minimum or four different things. Once those four were installed I would have to take it to a DMV office to be inspected. If it passed they would change the title to reflect an RV and issue RV plates. Florida is a lot easier. I checked in to Florida laws last week and was told all I had to do was install one of the following; an AC electrical system like a 12 volt to 120 AC converter, a propane/gas cooking system, or a sink or toilet with running water. After one of those was installed all I had to do was walk in to the DMV office and sign a piece of paper declaring I had installed the equipment and then they would give me RV tags. No inspection necessary. So you might want to see what is needed to convert to RV registration.

Speaking of RV's, there's another loophole that can be used when living in a state that requires a CDL for any truck over 26,000 pounds. Just pull an RV trailer with the truck. When any sized truck is used to pull an RV trailer it is considered an RV combo and fits within the RV exemption from needing a CDL. This also gives a green light to passing scales without having to worry about permits.


Ruppster

 

[rorybellows]

wow thats a long read. any way you look at it, the state of wa is gonna screw you. they want their money, and their gonna get it one way or the other.

 

[Ruppster]

wow thats a long read.

Sorry about that.

Ruppster

 

[rorybellows]

ah no worries its good info