was "deuce T/C ?s" nowRear Lockout and Axle Design

[rdixiemiller]

All
I am looking for some basic transfer case information. Does the t-case have a rear wheel drive only position? I see mention of removing the front drive flanges for road trips, I assumed it was to reduce the drag of the front diff. Now, after looking through the operators manual, I am thinking these things are full time all wheel drive, with the transfer case only being a high/low box. I drove one of these beasts many years ago at a friends military scrap yard, but in the Fla. sand, I could not tell if the front axle was pulling or not. Any help on this would be appreciated.
Regards to all
Robert Miller

Wanting to find a M35A2 to drive back and forth to work.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Well Robert, there are 2 different transfer cases! The older transfer cases feature and overrrunning clutch arrangment (some call it a sprag). What this does is underdrives the front axle by a bit but when rear wheel slippage is experienced, the sprag engages and all wheel drive is present. T-136-21 is the model number. Later T-136-27 transfer cases have rear drive and an air operated solenoid (switch on dash) to engage all wheel drive. Removing the drive flanges on a sprag case does nothing without removing the driveshaft. Hope this helps!

 

[rdixiemiller]

Aha! That would explain why the truck I drove had only a high/low/neutral for the t-case. This was a late '50's REO that had been rebuilt to multifuel configuration. I am asking these questions because I have some ideas on what type deuce I want. Now I see I am looking for an air shift transfer case. I am probably going to machine a new axle shaft for the drivers rear set of wheels, then use a selectro hub on it. Since the hub configuration is the same, front to rear, this should work. It will need the side gear splines on one end, and the front axle outer splines on the other. The only thing it might need would be some type of axle retainer and support bearing on the outboard side. This would be easier than removing the whole axle shaft to disconnect the rear drive for a road trip. This axle would also work with a front hub drive flange instead of the selectro hub. You could have a de-splined and a splined flange, to swap as needed.
Are the axle shafts the same length, left and right? If I can find a longer axle with the correct splines on the end, it will save 2 setups in the mill with a dividing head. I would just cut off the flange and machine on the splines.
Regards
Robert Miller

 

[Recovry4x4]

Oh Robert,you're talking my language now. Yes you could do the single lockout in the rear. Arthur at M35 products offers such a thing. The axles in the rear are the same length and just too short to use with the hub configuration. I made some calls to s few friends who cut axles using the dividing head and a side type cutting tool. I hear that if you use a single type cutter on the top of the axle it wobbles just a bit and the cuts aren't as clean. As a matter of convenience, all the axles, inner anf outer front have the same spline. Doing like you said if one were to grenade that rear hub a simple front drive flange could be bolted on. As far as a retainer I'm not sure about that. Shoud you find a nice truck that has the sprag case, it can easily be swapped. You can also just swap out the front drive area and keep the existing case. All the trucks have the same high, neutral, low shift lever but there is an air switch lever on the dash for front drive. Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

 

[rdixiemiller]

The reason I was thinking an outboard bearing and retainer might be needed was to support the hub end of the axle shaft. That and the fact that you don't want the axle floating around between the locking hub and the side gear. I have not looked at a deuce differential in several years, and I can't remember if the axle could go through the side gear and rub on the spider shaft. The outboard bearing could be nothing but an oilite bronze bushing tapped into the spindle that kept the axle shaft centered up. A split lock bearing retainer would keep the axle in place. All I would need is to make up an axle shaft that protrudes from the hub the same distance as a front axle/hub. Then the selectro hub would bolt right on.
Another possibility would be to modify the power divider from a tandem axle truck to mount on the front or rear diff. That would stop the wheel bind and hop you get with the locked rears in a deuce.
The axle would probably be easier. I have a source for 4140 shafting in the right size/length. I have my own machine shop in the basement (Bridgeport mill, Clausing Lathe, Surface grinder, etc.) and access to most anything else I could need. I would cut the axle splines on a horizontal mill with a dividing head. This is pretty much how the original axles were made.
Recovery, since you seem to have quite a collection of parts....
How about getting the spindle hole diameter off a rear housing, then the axle spline diameter. That way I can see what kind of bushing would be needed for the spindle.
Regards
Robert Miller

 

[Recovry4x4]

Alright, I'll get to work on that. Memory tells me the spline is 1.66" 16 spline but I'll pull an axle to be sure. Is a measurement with a vernier caliper close enough on the spindle? I don't have any internal mics or snap gauges!
Kenny

 

[Longhunter7]

Kenny!

I have a question related to this dicussion!

I have the Selectro's on the front axle from M-35 Products, and they are GREAT!

I still have the original front hubs!

My question is, can I have the original hubs desplined and used on the forward rear axle for long road trips?

I am not sure if I should wait to see M-35's lock-outs for the rear, or swap the splined with the de-splined original hubs before a trip?

Will the hub swap work?

 

[Recovry4x4]

Well Rick, you certainly can do that. Thats a lot more work than you need to do though. There is no need to despline them and you only need to install one. Unless you have spools in the back, once one axle from either rear is removed, you eliminate that inter axle bind. I haven't bought the big one yet and installed Selectros but I do have a set of desplined hubs. I install these on the front axle and remove one axle from the back diff and install a front splined hub in its place. The joy in your situation is if you need just a little more traction, you can just engage the hubs and flip the air lever. I have to get out the impact. Just try it, remove one rear axle and pop a flange on there and take a road trip. let me know what you find but I think you'll like it. Lots of folks say you get stuck real easy that way but hey, its for road trips!

 

[rdixiemiller]

kenny
Caliper measurements are fine for my needs. Do the front axle outer splines match the inner splines?
Regards
Robert

 

[Recovry4x4]

Yes the splines match, inner and outer. It's a wonderful thing!

 

[rdixiemiller]

So, I am looking at making an axle with 1.66x16 splines on each end. All I have to do is determine the correct length. I would probably make it about 1/2" longer than I think necessary, then shorten it down until I got a good fit with no bind.
Longhunter
Since you already have a set of Selectro's, can you scan and send me a copy of the installation instructions, preferably with diagrams? Over the years I have worked on most all types of locking hubs up through the late seventies. Depending on the internal construction of the hub, some do not like having the axle turning when not engaged. Not a real problem on the front, but it could definately be a problem on the rear. I can look at the exploded wiews and see if there are any obvious problems that I can see.
Regards To All
Robert Miller

 

[Recovry4x4]

Robert, consider this in your design. With a single lockout on one of the rear wheel ends, everything inside will still be turning. With that hub unlocked it allows the variation in total rollout between axles. Its a little different than front lockouts where the hubs are spinning at roadspeed and the axles and subesquent hub gears aren't moving. The difference in speed between the hub and the axle will be negligible. Your consideration of this gives credit to your understanding of the hubs and driveline geometry for sure. I might have to get in line for one of those axles. Check your PM box for a message!

 

[rdixiemiller]

Thanks for the compliment! I have been around vehicle maintenance and modifications for 30 years now, and have seen some spectacular failures from not looking at the theory of operation before diving in.
The main concern I have is this: In a front axle situation, the outer axle stub is normally supported by a bronze bushing, or a roller bearing. This keeps any side loading off the locking hub, and keeps everything centered up so the hub will engage and disengage freely. If we convert the rear to a double splined, floating axle, we will have to support the outer end somehow. The axle flange norally keeps the outer end of the axle centered in the hub. If my memory serves (looking back 20+years), the Selectro style hub has a piece which fits the axle splines, and is engaged by a splined piece in the hub that is pushed in when the hub is turned. I think a bronze bushing in the spindle would work fine, because it will only be supporting the weight of the end of the axle. I just don't want the hub itself having to bear any load. If you were using the front hub flange on the rear instead of a Selectro, this would not be needed, as the drive flange would keep everything in place. You would de-spline your road trip flange and press in a bushing. This one would last forever, because, as you said, there would be very little relative movement.
Now, if I can just figure out my personal in box.....

Regards
Robert Miller

 

[MV Trucker]

Go to this site for installation of the hubs. The truck doesn't have to be jacked up and it takes me about forty-five minutes to install a pair.
http://hometown.aol.com/mytjoe73/page3.html

 

[Longhunter7]

Joe!

Thanks for coming up with the hub installation! <img src="emoticons/icon_smile_cool.gif" alt="Cool">

I was trying to find the information for rdixiemiller, and was having trouble finding it!

They are easy to install and it was like putting power steering on my Deuce! <img src="emoticons/icon_smile_thumzup.gif" alt="Thumb Up">

 

[Recovry4x4]

Robert, I agree with the bronze bushing in the spindle. One thing I have found is that the spindle insides are not true to the outside bearing surfaces. Wonder if these things are cast then finish machined? If so that might account for the insides not being true. Al least I've found this on a few old Dana 60 axles. Hmm, you've brought up a point I've not thought about before. Since I have a hard time swallowing the price of Selectros, much less 2 sets, I never thought of using the double splined axle and a pair of flanges, one splined and one desplined. Al least this way you only need 2 flanges instead of a flange and the removed axle. Ultimately I would really like to have the front hibs and a single rear hub.

 

[rdixiemiller]

That was my intention, to have something that could be tried fairly simply before springing for the hubs. The price of the hubs is not bad when you consider what it takes to make them. I could build my own, but why? The axle could be tried with your existing front flange setup, quick and easy. Swapping the flange is easier than pulling an axle, less mess as well. If it works well with the drive flanges, then a hub can be bought later. Next step is making an axle. Of course, it would be easier if i had a deuce in the driveway to try it out on....sigh.....
Regards
Robert Miller

 

[Recovry4x4]

Robert, I can assure you that pulling one rear axle is worth the effort. Can you get stock long enough to make up an axle? I've spoken with a few axle guys that said they could make any axle and when I told them what I need, the told me they don't have product that long.

 

[Lee Alessi]

we were told the same thing with m715 axles. then after we gave them the lengths, no one would touch it, or it was cheaper to swap it.

 

[rdixiemiller]

I can get 4140 in 20' lengths. I have a friend who has a machine shop/fab shop. he is making pump shafts out of 1.75" O.D. 4140 steel, 20' long pieces. I can get just about any type steel, any size, any length. Price is the only concern. Axles are normally machined from forgings, it would be prohibitively expensive to machine them from solid stock. This is why the axle shops could not help. However, to make an axle with splines at both ends is not bad. I will scout around for a deuce axle that I can use to make up a drawing. Next, I will see what kind of cutter I will need. I may be able to find a carbide insert with the required profile. That would save some tedious work on the tool grinder making a profile cutter. Then it is just a matter of setting up the dividing head to cut splines on 22 1/2 degree spacing.
Regards
Robert Miller