was "deuce T/C ?s" nowRear Lockout and Axle Design

[rdixiemiller]

Rat
When I get everything ready, I will let you know. I will probably try to get you and Kenny up at the same time and fit out both trucks. If you have some extra front drive flanges, send them down and I'll get them turned out for you. I can bore them on the lathe in about 1/2 hr.
Regards
Robert Miller

 

[Lee Alessi]

so let me get this straight. yall are engeneering a lockout hub solution for the rear axles???

im interested

 

[Desert Rat]

Lee,
We're working on it. As soon as Robert lets me know when to drive on down, I'm dropping off 'Storm for her fitting. I'm looking to improve fuel economy on her and have the added option of a lockout on the drives. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Lee, sorta like that. No sense in reinventing the wheel, the hub is already out there. Robert is working on a doublesplined shaft so that the hub can be bolted on. Not sure how much we are talking yet but it looks promising. Keep following the thread, we're at least having fun trading ideas.

 

[Lee Alessi]

spicergear needs to chime in. hes smart, and good at this stuff too

 

[spicergear]

Thanks Lee. Fellas, this may be very easy as you need to keep in mind that if you have a a front drive flange desplined to float on a custom double splined rear axle shaft, the amount of difference in rotation between the hub with wheel mounted and the axle being driven isn't going to be much at all. A simple grease zirk on the drive flange would probably be sufficient to lubricate what mismatched movement there is in that assembly. It's not like a front axle where when unlocked, the shaft isn't moving but the hub and wheel STILL are. A lot less need to special bearings or lube. Has anyone called Moser or someone like that as a point of reference for axle cost? I like this idea though would greatly recommend not trying to respline a rear axle on the outside as generally the axles are specially hardened or heat treated and cutting the splines will cut through that into softer material. Oh, and another thing...for those going to run the Selectros on the FRONT, pack that spacer area full of grease so that you have just the axle end sticking out of a mass of grease. I've had problems with Selectros in the past burning up from lack of grease and found this to take care of that situation 100%.

 

[spicergear]

Just emailed Moser for a price quote. I'll post when I receive their info back.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Moser can't make the axle in the length we need. I spoke with them at the Gators a few years ago and they assured me that they could. When I called to order one, they said they can't make it that long. Robert, I've got a long front axle showing up here shortly. I'll measure it when it arrives.

 

[Lee Alessi]

i know who can make it, or knows where to have it made. he offered to do some 300m axle shafts for the m715, and thats when NO ONE could make them

www.killeraxles.com

 

[Lee Alessi]

he is the one making air actuated 2.5 ton lockers. he may be interested in this idea

 

[rdixiemiller]

I got a price on 4140 today. If I buy 1 5/8" (1.625) it will run $60 per axle blank. If I get 1.75", it is about $50 per blank. The 1 5/8" must not be as commonly used. As far as re-splining an existing axle, most of the ones I have worked on over the years have been flame hardened on the splines. The axle itself is heat treated at the factory. Since most of the deuce owners would be running with the rear unlocked for 95% of the time, I don't really see a problem with the splines failing. If you are running a Cat V8, that might become an issue. I am venturing a guess that with the stock driveline, there would be little chance of breaking an axle. My concern is this: will the selectro hub unlock with pressure on it? Some hub designs use a spring, which is compressed by the rotating of the selector on the hub. I can remember having to back my old Jeep J-10 up to get the transfer case back into 2WD, and forget unlocking a hub under pressure! That one had Warn hubs.
Just something else to think about. It would still work with a front drive flange, so I am still going to work on this idea.
Kenny
Let me know when you get the long side axle in.
Regards
Robert

 

[Lee Alessi]

so the theory here will be ONE selectro on ONE side, and your modified axle shaft, correct?? and the spider gears will just spin?

 

[Recovry4x4]

Sounds great Robert. As soon as the axle gets here i'll measure it and then get it shipped up to you. Since the spindle is the raw casting, what's your thoughts on the bushing or torrington bearing to support the axle with the Selectro Hub? We need an exploded diagram of the hub. Heck, what we really need is a hub.

 

[Desert Rat]

Robert,
I don't mind having to back off the pressure to unlock the hub. You're right, 95% of the time she'll be unlocked anyway. About the only time I'll lock her down is in snow or mud or snowy mud (the worst). Once I'm on solid ground I don't mind backing up an inch or two to unlock the hub. I'm guessing with a Cat and short distances the hub might be under some stress but not if I keep a careful eye on what's going on. This sounds like a good plan. Oh, the factory direct axle was a whopping $350 unmachined. Let me know what you are thinking of for a price and we'll talk turkey(gobble gobble<img src="emoticons/icon_smile_wink.gif" alt="Wink">).

 

[Recovry4x4]

Originally posted by Lee Alessi

so the theory here will be ONE selectro on ONE side, and your modified axle shaft, correct?? and the spider gears will just spin?

Well Lee, not really. The interaxle driveshaft will still be connected so the diff will still be spinning at road speed. By unlocking that one hub you can allow differetiation between drive axles. the difference between the speed of the hub and speed of the axle will be negligible. It also helps turning quite a bit since this takes the "plowing" effect away.

 

[rdixiemiller]

When y'all pull one rear axle does everything "unwind"? If the bolts come out and the axle stays in one place, there should be little problem with a hub. If it turns a good bit, or if the last bolt out is really in a bind, then there could be some problems.
I do not yet own a deuce, so I can't say for sure.
As far as running with one hub unlocked, there will actually be very little relative motion between the unlocked rear hub and its' respective axle. the only time there would be any real motion would be in a tight turn, or if you were crossing a pasture terrace and the unlocked axle took the weight of the truck and let the driving axle leave the ground. I have done that with trucks that had a drag (unpowered) rear tandem. I would imagine that the only time you would have the rear hub unlocked would be on the highway.
As for an axle support bearing: Depending on what the hub construction looks like, there might not be any problem. If one is necessary, I would probably make something that looks like a nylock nut that would thread onto the spindle. Instead of a nylon locking insert, there would be a bronze bushing. After all our discussions about the lack of relative motion at that point, I am beginning to think there might be no problem.
Only a trial will let us know for sure.
Spicergear, since you seem to put your rig through its paces pretty well, any thoughts on the strength of the Selectro hubs? I could not tell from your truck picture with the logs whether or not you use them.
Regards to all
Robert Miller

 

[Recovry4x4]

I've pulled axles where they pop right out. Sometimes that last bolt bonds a bit too. I know when I put the axles back in I head right for the bottle jack. I've learned that its easier to just jack up that wheel than to fight with it. If the Selectro is like the old Spicer, it will unlock, or lock, when the tnesion is relieved. Even if you gotta get out the jack, its easier than removing the whole axle shaft.

 

[rdixiemiller]

Just an added note:
A machine/fab shop that I do about 1/4 million a year business with (through my job) has had some axle experience over the years. He used to make dragster axles from 4140. He told me he was always a little nervous about his axles breaking under the HP loads, since he had no heat treating facilities. He never had one break, so if they stood 500+HP, they should hold under the 140 HP of a LDT465. He did tell me one had twisted 1/4 turn over the entire length after years of use, but it never broke.
Spicergear could probably break one with his rig, I would imagine he can approach the limits of the truck with his mighty motor! In case you are wondering, yes, I am jealous of his beast.
Regards
Robert Miller

 

[spicergear]

I don't think it's possible to break a factory axle no matter what motor with the NDT's. No way. The axles that take the most abuse in these trucks is the front axle. It's got half the frame, cab/front metal, engine trans and sharing T-case, winch, etc. My CAT motor is just more power but not like dumping the clutch on an 800hp BBC with 15" slicks. The traction just isn't there. I think it would take surface that would have one tire loaded and the other side completely unloaded with the truck hauling a load to put enough stress and traction on the rears. Guys building rock crawlers are breaking them in light buggies, but they're running 52" 300# tires or 44's and crawl ratios that force something to break. The uniformity of having three driving axles and 10 driving tires will help keeping one axle shaft from enduring the load all together. Plus, an open axle will transmit the power to the lesser traction tire before the other side has enough traction and power to it to break anything.

Selectros...I have a set on my Rockwelled, 427BBC powered M715. I have Detroits front and rear. On an paved driveway, I can stop the truck from rolling down hill by turning the steering wheel. Detroits for Rockwells are VERY positive. The Selectros do bind and won't unlock until the axle pressure is taken away. The Selectros for Rockwells are a very hunky and large unit. Surprisingly heavy and solid if you're used to 1 ton stuff. I think the selectros will last a pretty long time on these trucks...might be fun to unlock rear ones if a Detroit was installed though.

I'm still not sure that a bearing out by the lockout would be necessary. Keep in mind that the axle is going to be spinning and supported. Oh, and if you're really worried about it, couldn't you just tap a sleave into rear axles spindle for support?

 

[Recovry4x4]

My concern and Roberts too, was the design of the Selectro and if it would support the weight of the axle shaft. Unlike the front that has a bushing, the rear will be totally supported by the axle gear and the hub. Spicergear has em and says the hub design will support the weight then I'm OK with that. Spicergear, where did you buy the hubs at brother? I know of 3 sources and the mfr is right here in FL but they won't sell to me!