Water injection in the 6.2?

[Cletus09]

Maybe this is a bad idea, but thats why I'm coming here to ask!

I have heard of people injecting windshield washer fluid into their intake for a little bit of a boost (because its alcohol based). I have also heard of doing something similar with water. The water expands more than the fuel does when it burns, and it lowers the EGT (exhaust gas temperature) which is ideal. However, I dont know if injecting either of these will increase engine wear, or if it will be useless for producing more power. I have read the lower EGT's is a good thing. I also know that ether is a bad thing for these engines and I dont know if alcohol would have the same effect.

Maybe Im just all wet in my thinking.

 

[doghead]

The water expands more than the fuel does when it burns

Please tell me more about water burning.

Maybe I'm just all wet in my thinking.

Bathwater might be good too. Stop drinking it and start injecting it!

Just ad a stack and pretend it's faster.

 

[Tanner]

Where's that Doghead button again?

First, you need to verify the glowplug gap... this is usually where people go wrong on diesels.

Next, a good HP adder is a set of chrome valve covers, along with a vented muffler. You can also gain a 3% increase in fuel economy in colder climtes by changing the Summer air in your tires to Winter air, as the cooler weather densifies the molecular structure of the air molecules, allowing more air to be installed in the tires, thus - lessening their rolling resistance.

Want to spend a few more dollars on performance improvements? I'd recommend swapping out the stock exhaust for an O-pipe system instead of an H- or X-pipe crossover system...

This message was vetted by no one...

'Tanner'

 

[Cucvnut]

Propane...

 

[dstang97]

pretty simple concept. Water gets injected into a hot motor and creates stem. Stem = MORE power, Lower Egts.

 

[Keith_J]

Propane...

Is a bad idea. As is any additional fuel. Propane must be carefully metered IF you can control combustion temperature because its autoignition temperature is low enough there can be preignition even with injected quantity less than the lower flammability limit.

Methane is far better but still, combustion temperature must be controlled. It has a higher autoignition temperature which reduces the danger.

Yes, water injection CAN add useful power since water is a very light molecule. The water increases mass flow rate and phase change from liquid to gas compensates for lower gas temperature. In essence, the engine becomes a hybrid diesel/steam.

But the manifold was not designed for two-phase flow so there could be some cylinders with more and some with less. Also, proper control of injected quantity is a must, it should only be injected during maximum throttle conditions with the engine at operating temperature. Adding methanol as an antifreeze works but it requires slightly different injection parameters since it adds energy with less cooling.

I don't see ANY improvement in stock engines unless you run at full throttle for extended time. Then you have the hassle of filling the water tank and checking the fuel.

 

[Cleptomaniac]

Basically the only way to do it properly is if it is turboed. Then it can be injected when boost is greater than or equal than X.

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

Apparently some here are not aware that water injection is an old and well proven technique for improving horsepower and fuel economy in internal combustion engines. It's been around since at least the 20s, and has been used effectively in everything from heavy equipment to race cars to 747 Jumbo jets. (TWA used it on their 747-XPs, which were shortened versions used for the trans-Pacific routes. They injected directly into the exhaust, like an afterburner. It provided an extra 10,000 pounds of thrust on a 40,000 pound engine. That's a 20% increase in power with NO pollution and virtually for FREE.)

My father was on a team that experimented with various engine and equipment issues under arctic conditions for the Canadian Army during WWII. They played a bit with water injection. Because of the extreme cold, it turned out to be more trouble than it was worth for that application.

It's most effective when used with supercharging, as it allows more boost to be used. This is because it cools the intake charge and reduces pre-ignition.

Still, it can provide some benefits even without supercharging.

One of the nice side-effects of water injection is that it steam cleans the engine as you drive.

I wouldn't use windshield washer fluid, though, because you also get some detergents in most washer fluid.

Some do use methanol in the mix, but it is there for the antifreeze effect, NOT because it boosts power. (Though it may, a tad.)



Would it provide significant benefits in a 6.2?

I have no idea, but it would be interesting to find out.

 

[BiffJ]

I know of Methanol / Water injection being used on Aircraft engines in WWII in order to increase the boost while preventing detonation. In gasoline engines its important to prevent detonation to keep heat and pressure down and boosting through turbo or mechanical supercharging builds heat and pressure quickly. The methanol was primarily used as an anti-freeze in the water to keep it liquid at the high altitudes where the M/W injection was most useful. The water was the main ingredient and worked by reducing temps in the intake charge.

In jet engines they added water and methanol to increase the thrust by adding more mass to the exhaust as well as the steam increasing pressure and volume of gasses working against the turbine. It also cooled the exhaust gas impinging on the turbine wheel allowing more fuel to be used as well without overheating the turbine wheel. M/W injection in the B52's was in front of the turbine wheel rather than after as in an afterburner. The injection of the water caused the exhaust to be to cool enough for the smoke to turn black....I remember watching the B52's taking off on huge thick trails of thick black smoke.

On the one hand I can see water injection in diesels adding some cooling and expansion through the steam but I don't know how it would work injecting liquid water into the intake. We've all been taught through the years that there isn't enough room in the cylinder to have any liquid. I've seen a cylinder head lifted off a mercedes due to an overenthusiastic owner using half a can of ether to start.....I'd not want water to do the same and how can you insure its vaporized before it gets to the cylinder? Last thing is taking heat out of the cylinder through water injection. My Volkwagen turbo diesel has electric heaters in the radiator to help warm the thing up because diesels don't make nearly as much waste heat as gas engines of the same size. We don't normally run passenger cars at power levels where they make a lot of heat so why take away what it does make? Admittedly in a truck you will be using a lot more of the engines output so will producing more heat....

I have heard of hybrid diesel/steam engines where the waste heat from the turbo and exhaust is used to heat water to steam which is then used to run a steam engine that is tied into the diesel like a hybrid motor/engine setup. Sounds like a good use of otherwise wasted heat and possibly something a homebuilder could try.

Just my opinions.....


Frank

 

[dstang97]

You guys are missing the key thing here... the 6.2. no matter what you do it will still be slow and under powered. It is what it is.

Want more power put on a turbo and 6.5 injectors. Thats about all you can do.

 

[Tanner]

Apparently some here are not aware that water injection is an old and well proven technique for improving horsepower and fuel economy in internal combustion engines. It's been around since at least the 20s, and has been used effectively in everything from heavy equipment to race cars to 747 Jumbo jets.

Actually, many on SS are old enough to recall the days before push-button phones, bank drive-up teller windows & ATM's, when Coke was made with sugar, and when TV dinners originated. Plus a bunch of other old stuff.

Can you add water injection to a 6.2? Sure! You can add it to your push-mower as well, but the gains, like on a N/A 6.2, are not much different from peeing into the wind.

Guys running 6.X motors in N/A fashion are seeking gains that aren't really worth chasing - the ROI in performance after adding water injection would be extremely minimal at best. Not knocking the OP's question, but I wouldn't call it a huge benefit to chase after. Nor should he fall for the advertisement offering '60hp+ fuel injectors'.

Now - you COULD try adding Dihydrogen Monoxide to the fuel - also known as 'HHO', but it may prove to be too much for the little 6.2 to handle...

'Tanner'

 

[Cleptomaniac]

Like I said. Turbo then water meth injection. You have to have something to base your injection off of. Ea map sensor or boost gage. The water brings down your egt's making it so the fuel can be turned up.

 

[Keith_J]

..

Now - you COULD try adding Dihydrogen Monoxide to the fuel - also known as 'HHO', but it may prove to be too much for the little 6.2 to handle...

'Tanner'

That is a pure scam. Dihydrogen monoxide is just another name for WATER. Yes, water WILL decrease combustion temperature which means you can turn up the fueling rate which will increase power.

Most systems base the injection on the manifold pressure, without turbocharging, you would have to sense wide open throttle. With the twin intake manifold, you would need two injectors. It COULD work. Still, the manifold was not made for two phase flow as it is a diesel which is dry. Which could cause some cylinders to have less water. So it may not last.

Turbocharging doesn't have that problem and it dilutes combustion gases, reducing temperature.

 

[Cucvnut]

Propane is fine in diesel motors if the system is done correctly.

 

[twomorestrokes]

I love the diesel in my 1008 over a gas engine but really, trying to hop one up with anything short of a turbo seems like a waste of time and effort. It is what it is.

I always thought water injection was to cool down the charge in a high compression gas engine to help with pre-ignition. I wouldn't think you'd want to run water through an air pumping diesel.

 

[patracy]

I was going to pipe up in this thread about the misinformation, then Tanner spoke up and addressed many points. (However I believe his HHO comment was in jest)

Keith_J, the "HHO" system is basically creating brown's gas from water through hydrolysis. However, this violates the laws of thermodynamics. (Takes more energy to split the molecules than is gained from combusting them.) This isn't a water injection system like the OP started the thread about.

Cucvnut is correct about propane being fine for diesel motors. HOWEVER, the gains to be had in a NA motor is minuscule. Again it goes back to Tanner's mention of ROI.

 

[wayne pick]

I am not anywhere near as schooled as you guys are on the physics of this topic, but back in the late 70s a friend of mine owned a speed shop and sold these water injection setups. Needless to say, there were many unhappy customers with severely damaged engines as a result. It also did not achieve it's claims of better power and fuel milage. It was a scam just as those fuel line magnets were or the turbine fans you stick in the air cleaner.

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

That is a pure scam. Dihydrogen monoxide is just another name for WATER.

Yes, most often used when pulling someone's leg.

 

[jrobinson5093]

look up snow preformance they are leaders in the water/meth injection market.

 

[Cucvnut]

Yes propane really needs a turbo to work correctly.