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What is a "restoration"?

wgtactical

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I've seen so many examples of what folks tend to call a restoration, but I can't recall any gage or format to measure a restoration by. Heck, I've even purchased vehicles with an alleged "restoration" :roll: Basically, I've seen new paint over dents, rust (both surface and deep pitting), dirt, flaking paint, etc. But I've also seen new paint over properly prepared surfaces as well.

With that said, does it mean that if its got paint on it and it has the silhouette of a particular vehicle...do we call it restored?

Or if it is an era correct example (in every detail) as one seen in service for the period?

Or is it simply the way it would have looked when it rolled off the assembly line?

I just think it would be nice to have some sort of grade criteria for what we're going to find ourselves calling "restored"
 

SCSG-G4

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To me, a restoration means removing 'all the rust' and properly refinishing the surface of the 'skin', then fixing all mechanical and electrical parts to 100 percent serviceability. Purists will argue for the as factory approach, but I am not after trailer queens with less than 100 miles on them. YMMV.
 

B3.3T

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"Restoration" is a broad term and without a method of gaging it, can mean anything from cleaning off the mud to a full rebuild better than the factory ever realized. I've seen both extremes in the MV hobby. The car hobby has a host of terms; off-frame, factory-authorized, etc., that all aid. But we have no standard.
 

clinto

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Restoration is when you disassemble EVERY single component... and rebuild it. The vehicle looks brand new.

Here's what restoration is:

Examples of Our Restorations

1969 1/2 A12 Super Bee


Everything less than that is repainting, refinishing, refurbishing, etc.
 

MWMULES

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I think of it in 4 classes, 1 Factory= frame off complete redo every thing rebuilt or replaced, usually better then they came from the factory (trailer queen show piece), 2 combat= everything operating , maintained, painted as it was in active service ( driver, parades, trail rides whatever) 3 modified= bobbed, re-engined something that did not come from the factory, 3 original = the way it came out from active service minus the DRMO and GL graffiti, maintained and operantional.

  • re·stored; re·stor·ing
  • Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French restorer, from Latin restaurare to renew, rebuild, alteration of instaurare to renew
 

CharlyArmy

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There are two types of work that can be confused. The first is Restoration and the second is Refurbishment.

Restoration: Simply put, as if the vehicle came off the assembly line

Refurbishment: Bringing the vehicle as close to 100% as possible, mechanically, electrically and visually.

Ever see those rework electronics, power tools and such. They all say refurbished, not restored.
 

papabear

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RESTORED:
I agree with most of you that "restored" means brought back to assembly line condition...and that means each and every part/panel. These are the high dollar trailer queens that are roped off at displays and rallies or left on the trailer "under guard"
I think it was Clinto that said he once had a lengthy argument over a particular type valve stem/cap on a particular auto.

MOTOR POOL CLASS: Running. driving, stopping, safe to operate on the road, all systems/body panels correct type for the era represented. These units may have some minor dents, evidence of patch welding/repair ...fair to good paint...you know like you would expect to see in any military motor pool where vehicles are frequently used.

STANDOFF CLASS : Running. driving, stopping (usually), enough era correct parts to represent the vehicle, no large holes eaten in the metal, paint pretty good but probably faded, may have some bondo, you know...looks pretty good and correct if you stand off about 50 feet.

Neary all the vehicles here in our little group (CAMO) fall into the Standoff Class:roll: however we use these vehicles proudly at displays, parades. gatherings etc, and allow folks (especially kids) to get in/on them and have a good time under supervision. Heck, we even give rides at every opportunity.

Guess it depends on what you want the vehicle for and how much you want to put into it.

I know MVPA has a "grade sheet" for classes of vehicles but when someone starts nit-picking one of our vehicles we ask..."where's yours"? Sometimes we just show them the closest gate.

Just my humble ramblings.
 

wgtactical

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I agree there should be at least three categories to cover the scope of what everyone is doing. I know that there has been a tremendous effort and resources put into the Eddie Black machine, and that the detail goes well beyond factory specifications. This particular project has seen an investment that exceeds what the machine will ever be worth, but then again I didn't do it to try and turn a profit either. This is more like a full size model car for us, as we have done whatever it takes to make it as nice as possible.

With that said, hopefully the MV crowd can adopt some sort of guideline for grades or classes that will more accurately define the effort put into the project. :wink:
 

papabear

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I recommend someone contact the GAMVPA and see what classes they use and maybe a criteria sheet for each class..(Grade sheet?).

Wonder if Clinto would be willing to tackle that mission? :roll:

BTW WGT...I've seen some of your posts and you folks do EXCELLENT work!!
 

Yohan

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Hey guys, coming from WGT, you must understand that his is a loaded question!!!! If you have not already, check out his "Eddy Black Restoration" thread. His work makes mine look like a kid with a coloring book just had a fit. There must be a classification that stands alone for WGT's class of work. He's also very witty and a really nice guy!

I can do "motorpool" work that makes me and most folks who look at it happy, but I have been known to do the old 50/50 kind of work (it looks great from 50 yards at 50MPH!). :grin: So start playing fair, WGT!;-)
 
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wgtactical

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Hey guys, coming from WGT, you must understand that his is a loaded question!!!!
You are right Yohan, and thank you and papabear for the kind comments :-D

I have just seen too many times how loose interpretation of words can either misrepresent or even underestimate the condition of whatever is being discussed or described. Keeping in mind that folks sometimes just associate any particular condition with what the popular opinion is, rather than how it relates to a given guideline, so it's easy to see the confusion.

Also I'm trying to play fair, but anything goes when there's no rules...right? :wink:
 

clinto

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I recommend someone contact the GAMVPA and see what classes they use and maybe a criteria sheet for each class..(Grade sheet?).

Wonder if Clinto would be willing to tackle that mission? :roll:

BTW WGT...I've seen some of your posts and you folks do EXCELLENT work!!

Typically "world class" judging only happens at National Meets.

I have a lot of experience with this in the Mopar hobby.

One, there aren't that many vehicles in the entire Country. Two, there aren't that many people who are knowledgeable enough about the vehicles to judge that kind of level.

Most local car clubs, be it the local Mopar club or the Ga MVPA use a very simple judging sheet. You have stock and modified and then you have various categories like paint/body, interior, undercarriage, etc. Each of the categories are scored 1-10 in terms of condition. In my opinion, this is BS judging and you might as well discard it as all it really turns into is a popularity contest. This 1-10 system is crap becuase it doesn't allow for correctness-only condition. So is a perfect repro master cylinder a 10 even if it is visually incorrect? If not, what is it? What is a dirty but correct and date coded master cylinder? Etc.

There used to be a decent sized Mopar event in Ga (it has deteriorated due to mismanagement) and several of us offered to develop a more exacting judging system. The idea was to try and attract some of the world class cars from the region. Most people that build a world class car don't take it to the local cruise night or car show. They leave it at home. We hoped by offering a real class for these cars and their owners that we could attract their participation.

The show owners didn't want to bother (even though it wouldn't have cost them anything). So they have stuck with their crap system and as a result, they've attracted a lot of crap cars.

Another thing is that most people wouldn't know a world class restoration if it crashed into them. These are the highest caliber restorations, built to the most exacting standards. When I repainted my Hemi Road Runner for instance, I had the paint shop put the factory runs in the paint back on the firewall and trunklid. Before I stripped the car, I took detailed pictures of all these flaws and had the paint shop replacate them. You wouldn't believe how many people made snarky comments at car shows about this, becuase they had NO clue whatsoever that it was intentional. Remember, restore means to take back to original condition, not better than new condition. World class means doing all the stuff that is really difficult like date coded mufflers, correct tire valve stems, etc. I have a friend who paid $500 a piece for NOS date coded Hemi motor mounts. Sure, you can buy repros for $100 a pair but they are obviously repro (no part #, no vendor code, no date code, no pentastar). And he is building an OE certification car, so he has to have the right stuff. Most people have no idea about the minutiae of details like this.

I don't know enough about military stuff to even begin to set up a judging standard or system for this stuff, but even if I did, there would probably be next to no demand for it here in Ga. I suspect in this hobby, that kind of judging only occurs at the National Meet. In the Mopar hobby, it only occurs at Mopar Nationals and Chrysler @ Carlisle.

World class restorations are breathtaking to behold. It's like taking a step back in time. I would love to see an M35 built to exacting perfection, just the way it rolled off the assy. line.
 

papabear

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I agree with all you said Clinto...just wondered if there was any interest in a grading system on the site or at Rallies.

I for one would never enter my vehicles in any kind of beauty contest because I know what I have put into them and only use them to show the types of vehicles the men and women of the era had to work with. I/we in CAMO get as close as we can with orginality both with the vehicles and equipment/uniforms displayed and they are always well received.

I agree there is a place for the "Restored" vehicles but I personally have no interest in them.
Give me a good ole "Motorpool" or "Standoff" Class vehicle any day and I will let folks enjoy them to their heart's content.

Again..just an ole phart rambling on:-D
 

frodobaggins

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When I repainted my Hemi Road Runner for instance, I had the paint shop put the factory runs in the paint back on the firewall and trunklid. Before I stripped the car, I took detailed pictures of all these flaws and had the paint shop replacate them. You wouldn't believe how many people made snarky comments at car shows about this, becuase they had NO clue whatsoever that it was intentional.

Clinto, you're a fun guy to talk to, but you got issues man.
 

clinto

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Clinto, you're a fun guy to talk to, but you got issues man.
Don't be jealous man, when you get a Mopar, I will help you be strong when you go to the paint shop.

"So, make it perfect"


"Now, Frodo, remember what we talked about. Tell the nice man you want the factory runs duplicated".

"No, this paint job is gonna' cost $15K! I want it perfect!"

"But perfect isn't correct"

"FINE! Ok, put the runs in it! :cry:"


"now, didn't that feel better?"
 
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