what is this tank ?

[frodobaggins]

Digitaldust, If it was ever owned by a VFW or was on loan from DOD, forget it unless you have proof they abandoned it. If you know it did not originally start on loan, will be the first here to say this: Go for it!

See what the story is if you feel comfortable, do it. Yes you could loose it if it was not supposed to be sold, then you go back and sue the seller to recover funds. As a rule of thumb, people on here are overly scared of DOD and TACOM. Most of the kick ass "I can't believe it was released" armor that is privately owned was done by people who took a risk and made it happen and told DOD "NO, you cannot have it back as I legally acquried it." The vehicles that are out and safe are safe only because pople stood up and fought for it. This involves cost, time and lawyers, but it sometimes works.

Before anyone decides I do not know what I am talking about, I will say that I am one of the people that has a "handful with fingers left over" rare type US armored vehicle on teh civilian market (I have the 3rd or 4th I know of) and battled with the DOD for over a year on it. Bottomline is if I had listened to everyone tell me it could not be done, I would not still have it and would not have even tried. Just look at it like gambling and don't spend more than you can afford to walk away from!

Well, whatcha got ?

 

[BKubu]

There was a guy on this list who was brokering an M60 (not sure the exact model) for a customer. I believe he wanted near $500,000 for it...or maybe it was $750,000. Either way, it was more than I could spend. I did not even get far enough to find out IF he had papers. I would assume he did given his asking price.

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

Every time I read "Let me see your papers" my mind "hears" it with a HEAVY RUSSIAN or GERMAN accent

And I agree.... You'd better have your papers all in order on that OD Steel Soldier or you'll go to the Gulag or Siberia or someplace like Guantanamo

That being said.... I'm looking over my neighbors' fences TONIGHT to see if there are any M60's in their backyards


[edit: spelling]

 

[Momil]

M-113

 

[frodobaggins]

M-113

So what's the story on how you acquired it ?

 

[Momil]

Long story. In light of my year long + battle with DOD, TACOM, etc., I prefer to keep it off the internet and prefer discretion. I will say it falls in the realm of abandoned / surplussed equipment.

 

[Stalwart]

I had an M42A1 Duster that come from Florida NG unit. I had a letter form the Secretary of the Army giving up all rights to it. Without that letter, you could be on thin ice.

 

[Momil]

The problem is that Dusters, Shermans, etc. came out earlier and were not considered "active items" or "modern armor" so there were still letters on lots of those items. I also have paperwork from TACOM / DOD where they released ownership and responsibility for the M113, but nothing on the new stuff is as clear cut as the old stuff, hence the higher risks. I also know the M60 that has been for sale lately. It is very legit, but the story and letter on it are as crazy if not more than mine. It just takes a lot of patience, sticking to your guns, and to be willing to take a risk.

 

[B3.3T]

Willing to take the risk is right. "Their" lawyers have an unlimited budget, does your's?

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

Willing to take the risk is right. "Their" lawyers have an unlimited budget, does your's?

Yeah - Like "What's in YOUR wallet?".....

 

[Momil]

I nor my father would charge myself for legal fees, so it is fairly unlimited in that sense. That is beside the point though. They have staff attorneys, but here is where the big, big secret lies. If an item was released, scrapped, abandoned, etc. by the govt. (not loaned out) and it is purchased in legal trade (not buying a stolen vehicle, see previous requirement) then they must compensate you fair market value if they recover the vehicle or take it back. They do not have unlimited budgets and they do not have 100's of thousands of dollars to throw at military vehicle owners. This goes from M1 Garands, to jeeps, to tanks, to air planes. They are more willing to work with you on the ownership of an M-60 tank than to have to cut you a check for 500k for it.

I promise I am not trying to argumetative or to draw this out. My point is just that if you can find some paperwork where they have released, scrapped, etc. a vehicle, it may well be worth the risk. If it was not a loan vehicle there is always the smallest chance. 9 out 10 people will tell you to not even waste your time trying, but every now and again someone wins the lottery and a cool piece of hardware is added to the hobby where others can appreciate and enjoy it!

 

[dittle]

Just for clarification that is an M60A3. You can tell because the turret has the mounts for the smoke grenade launchers on it. The M60 nor the M60A1 had the smoke grenade mounts. The M60A2 turret didn't look anything like the rest of the M60 series.

 

[shootER]

The M60 nor the M60A1 had the smoke grenade mounts.

Late M60A1 RISE/Passives did.

 

[LanceRobson]

The M60 nor the M60A1 had the smoke grenade mounts.

The red phosphorus smoke grenade dischargers were a British design that we used as an add on to any model of armored vehicle starting in about 1983(?). Each vehicle type had a set of jigs that fit over projections such as the lifting eyes or bolted to existing threaded holes or studs on the turret or hull. In turn, those jigs had flat steel plates with alignment fences that were used to attach a pair of electromagnetic based drills to drill and tap the mounting holes and the electrical firing control cable chases. Then you bolted down the vehicle specific base and the discharger and control box(es), tested the circuits and moved on to the next vehicle.

Over the years, we did a bunch of them. As I remember it, a pair of guys who had done a few could do an M113 series vehicle in about two-three hours and an M60 in about four-five hours. I personally never did or witnessed an M1 installation but given the restrictions on welding or drilling the armor, I'd guess they would have been more of a PITA.

Lance

 

[Stalwart]

The problem is that Dusters, Shermans, etc. came out earlier and were not considered "active items" or "modern armor" so there were still letters on lots of those items. I also have paperwork from TACOM / DOD where they released ownership and responsibility for the M113, but nothing on the new stuff is as clear cut as the old stuff, hence the higher risks

Mine came out of service in the early '90's, Shermans were LONG gone by then. Whatever, double Bofors are still kinda dangerous.

 

[digitaldust]

i'm going to eat some rtv for right now and when i'm asking for a recovery i'l talk

 

[EZFEED]

This whole thread just reinforces the reason I only deal with foreign stuff. You can get anything you want with no problems with the U.S. Govt as long as it's not our stuff. M-60 for $500,000 versus T-55/72 for $20,000......hmmm lets see?