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What wheels are on your humvee?

blutow

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Hundreds of thousands of HMMWV/H1, millions of miles - many incredibly harsh, and this isn't an issue beyond inspection and periodic replacement.
I tend to agree with this line of thinking with a stock setup, but this logic is debatable once you add oversized wheels and particularly a non-stock offset. If I were a betting man, I'd say that a properly maintained stock spindle nut setup would probably be fine with the aftermarket wheels/tires, but I seriously doubt anyone has hard data on it. I personally would avoid wheel spacers or non-stock offsets on most all vehicles for lots of reasons. Spindle nut concerns wouldn't be at the top of my list when running non-stock offset, but it would be in my head somewhere (even if I was running the pricey blue ones).
 

diesel_dave

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Can someone explain how high offsets are bad? If anything, moving the mounting surface closer to the center of the wheel seems like it would decrease lever forces on the hub. What am I missing?
 

SmartDrug

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I tend to agree with this line of thinking with a stock setup, but this logic is debatable once you add oversized wheels and particularly a non-stock offset. If I were a betting man, I'd say that a properly maintained stock spindle nut setup would probably be fine with the aftermarket wheels/tires, but I seriously doubt anyone has hard data on it. I personally would avoid wheel spacers or non-stock offsets on most all vehicles for lots of reasons. Spindle nut concerns wouldn't be at the top of my list when running non-stock offset, but it would be in my head somewhere (even if I was running the pricey blue ones).
Spacers are a whole other can of worms, bit I do agree.

The difference in offset is approximately 1 inch going from stock 8/12/24 bolts to a -25 offset. That makes a difference, but it’s not huge. Nevertheless, I’m sure it makes a difference over a long enough period of time. Then again, if you’re driving your HMMWV to the grocery store or to pick the kids up from school, that will wear the hubs/spindle/bearings less than taking it off some sweet jumps.

The biggest factor that I see is the weight difference. A factory 150lbs Wheel/Tire/Runflat weighs a hell of a lot more than a forged wheel with a civilian type tire. Given the factory backspacing, 150lbs on a 5” arm is more of a load than 100lbs on a 6” arm.

I’m not trying to be difficult, but I cannot see how such an inconsequential change could lead to any drastic change in life/wear. Anecdotal “evidence” doesn’t hold much water when there are so many other variables. Then again, the “it’s your funeral” crowd doesn’t need logic/evidence/proof.
 

blutow

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Can someone explain how high offsets are bad? If anything, moving the mounting surface closer to the center of the wheel seems like it would decrease lever forces on the hub. What am I missing?
A little offset variation isn't going to cause immediate implosion of the suspension or hubs, but any time you are working outside of the original engineering design you are typically increasing the risk of issues. Those changes might increase wear and tear on the suspension components or could reduce wear and tear if the change is beneficial to how the truck is used. AM General had a bunch of engineers that designed the truck to operate a certain way with a bunch of trade offs between performance and reliability and cost. You start messing with that balance and it might cause problems or might not, it just increases the unknown because whatever you are doing didn't go through the same testing and refinement that the original design did. Since most people don't use these trucks for their original purpose, it's totally reasonable for folk to change up the design. The balance they find may be way better than stock, but can also results in unplanned problems.

If we are talking problems specific to offset and wheel size, the poster child for these problems are jeeps. Huge wheels with big negative offsets (often combined with crappy lift kits) are a big recurring $ makers for the entire industry. I've got buddies that are into the aftermarket jeep scene and even the guys doing high end stuff are going through suspension components like they are consumable items.
 

MarkM

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The word is leverage. The more outboard the center of gravity also moves outboard. Lots of load on these heavy tires. Not saying you will have problems at all but it will increase the loads on the hub. For a one inch more pos offset with these heavy ass wheels I could see a 15-20% increase in hub load.
 

SmartDrug

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The word is leverage. The more outboard the center of gravity also moves outboard. Lots of load on these heavy tires. Not saying you will have problems at all but it will increase the loads on the hub. For a one inch more pos offset with these heavy ass wheels I could see a 15-20% increase in hub load.
That's fair, but the whole equation changes when you decrease the weight of the load by 1/3rd-

Black Rhino Armory 17s - 37lbs ea,
Nitto Ridge Grapplers in 37x12.5r17 78lbs ea

Total 115lbs per point

HMMWV Wheels 46lbs ea
Goodyear MT 37x12.5r16.5 82lbs ea
Runflats 35lbs ea

Total 163 lbs

That's a 30% reduction in unsprung weight

Even assuming weights are equal, the question still remains - does this have any actual force differential on the spindle or is it just on the bearing?
 

Action

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That's fair, but the whole equation changes when you decrease the weight of the load by 1/3rd-

Black Rhino Armory 17s - 37lbs ea,
Nitto Ridge Grapplers in 37x12.5r17 78lbs ea

Total 115lbs per point

HMMWV Wheels 46lbs ea
Goodyear MT 37x12.5r16.5 82lbs ea
Runflats 35lbs ea

Total 163 lbs

That's a 30% reduction in unsprung weight

Even assuming weights are equal, the question still remains - does this have any actual force differential on the spindle or is it just on the bearing?
The weight of the truck pushing on the bearings is still the same. The direction of force changes.
 

TOBASH

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When was the last time those were serviced? Were they the single tab version?

More importantly - Did the offset have anything to do with this failure? Does an increased arm cause increased stress on the spindle or just on the bearings?

Go ahead, Doc, show your work.
Our vehicles do not have straight axles going from side to side and our spindles might only be 10 inches long. On the rear axle for a solid axle, the bearings don’t take too much additional stress with extended wheels. They have a long cantilever to counterbalance. On those same vehicles the front spindles do not rotate and are embedded in solid steel so again they are less prone to fail. We have rotating spindles that are short and therefore more sensitive with bearings that can fail with time and this is all held together with bolts that are known to loosen unless you have a way of properly fastening the bolts. That is where the BlueHummers come in, because they are able to positively lock the bolts unlike the OEM equipment which loosens with time. When you add more offset you put more torque stresses on the bearings and more stresses on the fasteners. Someone on this form had offset rims and actually cracked a spindle maybe eight months ago.

Do what you feel is right but remember that your family and friends will be passengers in this vehicle, as well as oncoming traffic will be at risk if you lose your front left.
 
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TOBASH

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The weight of the truck pushing on the bearings is still the same. The direction of force changes.

We have stock wheels that balance the weight closer to over the hub bearing whereas wheels that extend further lateral move those forces away from the bearing and load the bearing eccentrically causing the spindle in effect to point upwards somewhat and place more stresses on the bearing and the fastening bolt and the entire rotating assembly.
 

JanR

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I made a quick force diagram. I hope you like my MS Paint skills :D

As I see it, the weight of the wheel does not play a big role here. What matters more is the weight of the truck. With stock offset, most of the load is carried by the outer spindle bearing. When the wheel is positioned further out, the inner bearing force is reversed. This means both bearing forces are increased by a lot. In time this can wear down the bearings, and a seized bearing can probably cause the spindle nut to come loose. A different offset also effects the steering geometry.

HMMWV-HubForces.png
 

TOBASH

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I made a quick force diagram. I hope you like my MS Paint skills :D

As I see it, the weight of the wheel does not play a big role here. What matters more is the weight of the truck. With stock offset, most of the load is carried by the outer spindle bearing. When the wheel is positioned further out, the inner bearing force is reversed. This means both bearing forces are increased by a lot. In time this can wear down the bearings, and a seized bearing can probably cause the spindle nut to come loose. A different offset also effects the steering geometry.

View attachment 866606
I thought I kinda said that. Lol

At this point people either get it or we are :deadhorse:
 
Last edited:

SmartDrug

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We have stock wheels that balance the weight over the bearing whereas wheels that extend further lateral move those forces away from the bearing and load the bearing eccentrically causing the spindle in effect to point upwards somewhat and place more stresses on the bearing and the fastening bolt and the entire rotating assembly.
I made a quick force diagram. I hope you like my MS Paint skills :D

As I see it, the weight of the wheel does not play a big role here. What matters more is the weight of the truck. With stock offset, most of the load is carried by the outer spindle bearing. When the wheel is positioned further out, the inner bearing force is reversed. This means both bearing forces are increased by a lot. In time this can wear down the bearings, and a seized bearing can probably cause the spindle nut to come loose. A different offset also effects the steering geometry.

View attachment 866606
A few things to note, the wheel force listed here, I believe, is incorrect. That may be the center of balance, but the force is still applied at the hub face. That force may be greater, due to a longer arm, but it shouldn't move. If that's true, then the fulcrum "Wheel force" would not change to Outer bearing force", nor would the bearing force be reversed.
 

JanR

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A few things to note, the wheel force listed here, I believe, is incorrect. That may be the center of balance, but the force is still applied at the hub face. That force may be greater, due to a longer arm, but it shouldn't move. If that's true, then the fulcrum "Wheel force" would not change to Outer bearing force", nor would the bearing force be reversed.
Yes, in reality the forces are transfered through the hub face. Since we are only interested in the forces on the bearings here, the wheel, hub face and axle can be thought of as a solid unit. The wheel force will always be the same, as long as the truck weight is the same. It is simplified to a point in the middle of the wheel (in reality it is spread out over the entire width of the tire (makes no difference here)). When the force (and wheel) is moved out it creates a higher torque in the system that needs to be compensated by the two other forces to reach equilibrium. As you can see in the picture, all forces will cancel each other out if added together. Same thing if you add all the torques. This is required in a static force diagram.
 

blutow

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Yes, in reality the forces are transfered through the hub face. Since we are only interested in the forces on the bearings here, the wheel, hub face and axle can be thought of as a solid unit. The wheel force will always be the same, as long as the truck weight is the same. It is simplified to a point in the middle of the wheel (in reality it is spread out over the entire width of the tire (makes no difference here)). When the force (and wheel) is moved out it creates a higher torque in the system that needs to be compensated by the two other forces to reach equilibrium. As you can see in the picture, all forces will cancel each other out if added together. Same thing if you add all the torques. This is required in a static force diagram.
Excellent explanation and picture!
 

Superhonk

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Does anyone know where to get good deals on new or gently used hmmwv tires? My newly acquired m1123 blew out a side wall on its first out of town hwy trip and I made it to my destination thanks to the run flat. I’d just like 1-2 decent tires to replace that one and a full size spare would be nice. But I’d love to afford 38” or 40” tires on those stock rims one day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Blizken

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Does anyone know where to get good deals on new or gently used hmmwv tires? My newly acquired m1123 blew out a side wall on its first out of town hwy trip and I made it to my destination thanks to the run flat. I’d just like 1-2 decent tires to replace that one and a full size spare would be nice. But I’d love to afford 38” or 40” tires on those stock rims one day


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Call Steve at Federal Military Parts. They usually have about 100 pre owned in stock.
 

thoner7

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Figured I’d share these, they are 17x9, and have a +20 offset which is one of the largest I’ve seen. H2 wheels are 17x8.5 are +18. I only mention that because they keep the whole tire inside the fender.

They don’t mention a weight rating but if they work on a big dodge 3500…

I hope I’m not missing something with these, chime in if I am

 
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