Wheel Lug Nuts & Studs and Anti-Seize

[steelypip]

I only use the copper anti seize, the aluminum seems to dry out and get hard.

I use anti seize on everything, including lug nuts and head bolts. And I put it on like it's free! Lol

I work on a lot of light alloy stuff, so I also use a bunch of the silver anti-seize. It's probably worth mentioning that silver Permatex anti-seize was originally called 'aviation' anti-seize - my Dad still has his pint can of the stuff from about 1962 when he rebuilt his first car engine with aluminum parts (he was working in the powerplant shop at Kirtland at the time, so knew what best practice was). It was meant for ferrous fasteners going through or into light alloy parts. If you're doing ferrous-ferrous (as with most MV lug nuts) then copper is the way to go. I keep a tube of each handy in my carry bag and use both constantly. The copper stuff is especially good on parts that get hot like brake parts and exhaust studs.

 

[tigger]

When I get the runs I prefer to use wipes over toilet paper, It just feels better and gives me that fresh feeling!

 

[welldigger]

When I get the runs I prefer to use wipes over toilet paper, It just feels better and gives me that fresh feeling!

 

[MarkM]

Yes, but those wipes are causing huge environmental issues so you may want to go green and use your hand. You could also take the high ground and eat foods that are quickly biodegradable such as sweet sorghum.

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/fatberg-dead-ahead-15-tons-slime-wet-naps-clog-london-6C10843060

 

[dmetalmiki]

Since forever I have used copper grease, and as minimum W.M.O. or W.D.80. (twice as good as wd 40! joke).

 

[steelandcanvas]

When I get the runs I prefer to use wipes over toilet paper, It just feels better and gives me that fresh feeling!

"Summer's Eve" fresh?

 

[73m819]

Also remember to use "Anti-Seize" on the stud threads so this doesn't happen again.

In a lot of states as well as the feds, it is against the law to use ANTI-SEIZE/grease on lug nuts / bud nuts, about the only thing allowed is something like WD40, the reason for this is NOT that because of the anti-seize allowing the nuts to come loose but because of the chance of cracking/breaking studs from OVER TIGHTENING due to the use of the anti-seize.

For those that believe this is a old wives tail, they really need to rethink the issue, I have seen this happen more then once, not studs per say, but BIG machinery like a crusher flywheel retaining collar breaking from being to tight but the collar bolts never reached torque because of anti-seize on the threads, a VERY EXPENSIVE event that the maker said could have been avoided by NOT using anti-seize, this is just one example of the many events due to the over use of anti-seize I have come across in my life time of working with heavy machinery.

So remember there are places that need anti-seize and places that do not.

 

[Floridianson]

http://www.fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_debunking_myth

 

[Floridianson]

I donot know of but 1 i never got off with it and it was broken at the base.

Were you stroking it the right way and ouch that sounds pain full.

 

[davidhdale]

Lol not quite what i ment

 

[rustystud]

http://www.fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_debunking_myth

OK, first off I have debunked this "debunked" myth a long time ago. "Kevin Rohlwing" who wrote that article is not a mechanic. He is a suit who works for the tire association. He wrote that article to help the average shop against lawyers out to get rich on lawsuits. Yes, too much "Anti-Sieze" is bad. No one said to put on the whole can ! A little goes a long way. Also "Merritor" a major manufacturer of axles and differential assemblies says to lube "all" the studs even the newer style. Having worked side by side with actual "Merritor" engineers at the transit agency I know first hand they have no problem with anti-sieze".
Another thing that I will mention having worked for public transit for over 25 years. If they found out that using "anti-sieze" was a danger to the public do you honestly think they would "allow" the practice to continue ? Considering how sue happy the public is there is no way in the world they would allow it ! I have seen Metro get sued for some silly things and some major ones. Every time this happened a major policy and procedure change happened . Since "anti-sieze" is still being used that tells me they have no problem with it's use.

I forgot to address another point Kevin brought up. That is any lug-nut that gets stuck is somehow "damaged" is pure bull-crap ! I've seen brand new lug-nuts get stuck after a few months of winter weather, taking a lot of effort to remove them. I'm sure others here can testify to that also. So for him to say that using these nuts and studs is somehow endangering people is really aggravating to say the least ! That is the lawyer in him talking, nothing more.

 

[Floridianson]

Because of this thread I bought the broken thimble tool plus a very pricy torque wrench to do my wheel nuts. This is because now with the 915 freightliner and my trailer with the new S cam axle I hope to be on the road more. A friend is trying to talk me into the cross country military convoy for one.
I myself will still go dry except for the couple of drops of oil Webb says I ok. I do believe in the over torque or incorrect torque thing happening with to much of the wrong stuff. My new trailer axle has all new studs and nuts so I am not worried about any damage to the studs or nuts right now.
The 915 stuff looks like they have on newer stuff but don't know about the studs. One thing that was said on everything I could find was to retorque 100 miles after first install. When I first got my trailer back with the new axle they did not tighten the thimble tighter then the outer nut and I had a little trouble changing out my 22.5 to 24.5 tires. If my torque specs say 450 to 500 then I will go 500 on the thimble and maybe 450 on the nuts. In another post thread you said there was a mechanic fired because of a wheel nut problem. Could this have been caused because he did not see a problem with the studs and locking hardware and used old stuff. To say just because someone is not an ASE mechanic they don't know anything I feel is wrong. Maybe it takes an engineer or other person in the field to see problems like maybe the best person to make peace is not a warrior. Guess it is up to the OP to decide what to use and when to change out bad parts and use correct torque values. The only thing that was never said what the torque difference between wet and dry torque. If my thimbles go 500 what do they go when anti-seize is used? I did find this From Webb.http://webbwheel.com/pdfs/literature/TorqueBrochure0409.pdf

 

[73m819]

OK, first off I have debunked this "debunked" myth a long time ago. "Kevin Rohlwing" who wrote that article is not a mechanic. He is a suit who works for the tire association. He wrote that article to help the average shop against lawyers out to get rich on lawsuits. Yes, too much "Anti-Sieze" is bad. No one said to put on the whole can ! A little goes a long way. Also "Merritor" a major manufacturer of axles and differential assemblies says to lube "all" the studs even the newer style. Having worked side by side with actual "Merritor" engineers at the transit agency I know first hand they have no problem with anti-sieze".
Another thing that I will mention having worked for public transit for over 25 years. If they found out that using "anti-sieze" was a danger to the public do you honestly think they would "allow" the practice to continue ? Considering how sue happy the public is there is no way in the world they would allow it ! I have seen Metro get sued for some silly things and some major ones. Every time this happened a major policy and procedure change happened . Since "anti-sieze" is still being used that tells me they have no problem with it's use.

I forgot to address another point Kevin brought up. That is any lug-nut that gets stuck is somehow "damaged" is pure bull-crap ! I've seen brand new lug-nuts get stuck after a few months of winter weather, taking a lot of effort to remove them. I'm sure others here can testify to that also. So for him to say that using these nuts and studs is somehow endangering people is really aggravating to say the least ! That is the lawyer in him talking, nothing more.

I can not say ya or na on the above, what I do know is that using anti-seize will allow over tightening due to the make up of the anti-seize which in part is designed to REDUCE friction which in turn will require more torque to get the correct friction torque reading, the fed/states DOT take this into consideration when they say no anti-seize or grease on studs/lug nuts. EVERY state (most use the fed dot as a guide) that I have had trucks ready for a state DOT inspection every year, every two years, or random have REQUIRED a lug nut be pulled to check for anything on them other then a VERY lite WD40 type oil, if anything was, truck failed and stayed tagged out till ALL the nuts were pulled, cleaned, reinspected. Again I have no idea what some manufacturers say, others give TWO torque settings and/or a recommendation to use or not, also some have warning about over tightening when anti-seize is used. . AND as I have said before, I have had to deal with the over tightening/cracking issue a few times due to anti-seize.

So with the above said, it IS your truck, your money, your thoughts, your wrenching, maybe your and others safety, which means do what ever you want.

 

[73m819]

Because of this thread I bought the broken thimble tool plus a very pricy torque wrench to do my wheel nuts. This is because now with the 915 freightliner and my trailer with the new S cam axle I hope to be on the road more. A friend is trying to talk me into the cross country military convoy for one.
I myself will still go dry except for the couple of drops of oil Webb says I ok. I do believe in the over torque or incorrect torque thing happening with to much of the wrong stuff. My new trailer axle has all new studs and nuts so I am not worried about any damage to the studs or nuts right now.
The 915 stuff looks like they have on newer stuff but don't know about the studs. One thing that was said on everything I could find was to retorque 100 miles after first install. When I first got my trailer back with the new axle they did not tighten the thimble tighter then the outer nut and I had a little trouble changing out my 22.5 to 24.5 tires. If my torque specs say 450 to 500 then I will go 500 on the thimble and maybe 450 on the nuts. In another post thread you said there was a mechanic fired because of a wheel nut problem. Could this have been caused because he did not see a problem with the studs and locking hardware and used old stuff. To say just because someone is not an ASE mechanic they don't know anything I feel is wrong. Maybe it takes an engineer or other person in the field to see problems like maybe the best person to make peace is not a warrior. Guess it is up to the OP to decide what to use and when to change out bad parts and use correct torque values. The only thing that was never said what the torque difference between wet and dry torque. If my thimbles go 500 what do they go when anti-seize is used? I did find this From Webb.http://webbwheel.com/pdfs/literature/TorqueBrochure0409.pdf

When I worked for Stallion Oil Field Services they installed NEW studs after every three tire removals, number 4 got NEW studs.

 

[Menaces Nemesis]

OK, first off I have debunked this "debunked" myth a long time ago. "Kevin Rohlwing" who wrote that article is not a mechanic. He is a suit who works for the tire association. He wrote that article to help the average shop against lawyers out to get rich on lawsuits. Yes, too much "Anti-Sieze" is bad. No one said to put on the whole can ! A little goes a long way. Also "Merritor" a major manufacturer of axles and differential assemblies says to lube "all" the studs even the newer style. Having worked side by side with actual "Merritor" engineers at the transit agency I know first hand they have no problem with anti-sieze".
Another thing that I will mention having worked for public transit for over 25 years. If they found out that using "anti-sieze" was a danger to the public do you honestly think they would "allow" the practice to continue ? Considering how sue happy the public is there is no way in the world they would allow it ! I have seen Metro get sued for some silly things and some major ones. Every time this happened a major policy and procedure change happened . Since "anti-sieze" is still being used that tells me they have no problem with it's use.

I forgot to address another point Kevin brought up. That is any lug-nut that gets stuck is somehow "damaged" is pure bull-crap ! I've seen brand new lug-nuts get stuck after a few months of winter weather, taking a lot of effort to remove them. I'm sure others here can testify to that also. So for him to say that using these nuts and studs is somehow endangering people is really aggravating to say the least ! That is the lawyer in him talking, nothing more.

Uh-oh... a bunch of exclamation points... we've angered the bus-boy again by offering a differing perspective.

I must confess, I've been guilty of applying a dab of anti seize to the lugs and reducing the torque to 250 to offset the lubricity of the anti seize. Haven't broken a stud, or had a loose lug (yet) but my truck is pretty much always used empty and doesn't see any rough terrain either. This thread has been a real eye-opener. Thanks to everyone for the info about the anti seize.

 

[Floridianson]

You know me I like to push right or wrong but this is a discussion forum. I am will to bet the Merritor engineer first said with all new studs, thimbles and nuts we recommend a dry torque with a couple drops of oil. I bet they put nothing in writing to the use of anything but a couple of drops of oil . The busses I bet see a lot of wheel changes and problems with corrosion. So is the answer to lube so we get more used out of parts or to change out because changing out all the parts on that many busses would cost time and money. If someone could show me on paper where any wheel manufacture says anything but dry I will bow down and sing praise and this will be debunked. I asked the question before what would the correct torque specs if we did use Anti-seize on a wheel calling for 500 foot pounds. Did the Merritor engineer say what the difference was and put it in writing? Yes I have used older stuff when putting the wheel back on when maybe I should have gone new with everything and dry torqued. As for the lawyers I don't know of any court cases but if they can convince the jury that Anti-seize caused the problem then is there a problem. I am eager to get my new torque wrench and see how well I did on my dry new nuts after using the one inch truck impact. I read the statement about stuck nuts and damage threads so to me that would say replace if there was a problem removing anything in question.

 

[Floridianson]

Just one opinion but fun to watch. What else is there to do when it's raining.https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...C9BE9419E13164734F03C9BE9419E131647&FORM=VIRE

 

[rustystud]

Uh-oh... a bunch of exclamation points... we've angered the bus-boy again by offering a differing perspective.

I must confess, I've been guilty of applying a dab of anti seize to the lugs and reducing the torque to 250 to offset the lubricity of the anti seize. Haven't broken a stud, or had a loose lug (yet) but my truck is pretty much always used empty and doesn't see any rough terrain either. This thread has been a real eye-opener. Thanks to everyone for the info about the anti seize.

Really, "Bus Boy" . As a "ASE Certified Master Mechanic" I'm a little bit more then a bus boy. I spent years in the trucking industry before working on million dollar buses. But coming from a guy who spent days trying to prove me wrong on a fuel hose and then have the "gaul" to say buy this "untested" , "unrated" fuel hose from a unknown guy says volumes to me.
Do as you want with your truck, after all you bought it.
Also Floridianson, I didn't even mention my "ASE" certification until now. I only mention working with Merritor engineers.
Really guys, get a life.

 

[Floridianson]

Maybe we should move on and as said just let the OP decide to use or not. I did contact Meritor and they advise not to. I like they say advise or recommend and cover there donkey.