Which radio for the HMMWV?

[jpinst]

Where is Murphey's and where would one find a SIINCGARS radio? Are they working? Is Murphey's online?

Thanks!

 

[moleary]

Hmm. POSNAV appears to have been Motorola based, but...wow...I'd like to see those pics as I didn't know we played with that system at all.

Here are a few pics of FBCB2 with both DAGR and PLGR. Still quite a few PLGRs out there though I *think* most should be gone by the end of next year. There were various schemes for mounting the FBCB2 display and at least two different RAM mounts for them, so the pics show them mounted alternately high and low.

Are those available on the market?

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Where is Murphey's and where would one find a SIINCGARS radio? Are they working? Is Murphey's online?

Thanks!

Hi. www.murphyjunk.com

He has the both the later SINCGARS RT-1523B model and the earlier RT-1439 model right now which I'm pretty sure are ex-USMC. The RT-1523s have been demilled by removal of the crypto card but that doesn't affect basic operation at all on that version (or the RT-1523 plain version if you come across one of those.) Price is a bit outside my own reach, but it's not like you can buy them on every streetcorner either, so Mike's got a captive market. Very good guy to deal with. 100% legal.

There was also just one on Ebay that went unsold (Dec. 2009) with a minimum bid of $1300, which is about the cheapest I've yet seen for a working RT-1523.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Are those available on the market?

FBCB2 or the military GPS units? FBCB2 components show up (mostly screen and CPU mounts - HMMWV system mounts and some miscellaneous cabling including the SIAD and other bits'n'pieces) but so far I've not seen any generation of display or CPU come up. There have been a few of both types of keyboards recently though.

Military GPS: The AN/PSN-11 PLGR is supposedly illegal for private citizens to possess due to the cryptographic module(s) inside which - when keyed - allows the PLGR to decode the military-only PPS 'Precise Positioning Service" signal. In practice though, quite a few people have them anyway, as many were purchased by other state and federal agencies directly (or given to agencies involved in disaster relief etc.) and either disposed of by those agencies locally, or sold through GL, or sent to scrap via DRMS and thence by container to China with all the other electronic recycling. Either way, the Feds' position that every PLGR ('Plugger') that shows up for sale anywhere is stolen is...well...at least lazy...and quite frankly not only utterly ludicrous -- but something that flies in the face of everything the nation has been built upon -- especially that whole "innocent until PROVEN guilty"-thing most of us like to think of as a universal right. But enough with the soapboxing.

But, if you don't want to risk the Feds knocking at your door -- Rockwell Collins made the PLGR in two flavours: HNV560, and HNV500. They look identical. The HNV500 model is different only in that it doesn't contain the PPS-SM and AOC modules but is form, fit and function interchangeable otherwise in any collector military installation (i.e. brackets, mounts, cables, external antennas, software etc. all work.) They (and the military version PLGR) show up from time to time in the $150-$600 range in various places, but 'Buyer Beware' if they show up with no serial number labels etc. on them (the civvy version, the HNV-500, has a small label on the bottom; the military version has a big black label with white lettering containing the NSN etc. on the back.) There is also black PLGR-II out there as used by Navy SEALS etc. and a British military version called the SPGR, and various examples of both have been legally disposed of through Government surplus sources despite the fact both contain the crypto hardware.

DAGR is AN/PSN-13 and AN/PSN-13A, and is also made by Rockwell Collins in a civilian version called the Polaris which will set you back about $2200. You have to order them right from RWC and the wait is about 4-6 mos. Military DAGR units fall into the same category as the PLGR as far as the Feds are concerned -- i.e., every one of them in private hands is considered stolen -- but thusfar despite the fact that thousands upon thousands have been fielded, I've yet to see one come up for sale (and any that do would quite probably have to be considered 'bait'.)

 

[Munchies]

I haven't seen ANY PLGR's come up for sale since 2004-5.
The PLGR is outdated. Even when fully keyed, it is NOT AS accurate as a mid range MODERN civilian unit. 5 vs 12 channel, waas, etc.

You could load up a hop set oon some of those quasi-demilled radio's though. Just no internal encryption of the voice/data. Could combine it with some of those crypto module's he has though. Would be able to talk to anyone but yourself
but it would be fairly secure.

Really a big waste of time.
If your a civvie needing SOME security, try these
TriSquare eXRS Technology for 2 way Radio Communication

 

[Bunkerbuilder]

Columbia Electronics also sells radios previously used or issued by US Government.

Main page.
mbia Electronics International, Inc.

Their page on the PRC113.
AN/PRC-113(V)

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

I haven't seen ANY PLGR's come up for sale since 2004-5.

On Ebay? I've seen four in the last 12 mos., some from CONUS - others from China - some from UK (PLGR IIs in that case.) One vendor from China told me he gets them all the time. His last one in November went for a Buy-it-Now price of $150.00 (a bunch went over to China as electronic scrap in early days, and bets are some still go that route despite PM-GPS disposal instructions to the contrary.)

The PLGR is outdated. Even when fully keyed, it is NOT AS accurate as a mid range MODERN civilian unit. 5 vs 12 channel, waas, etc.

Heh...truth, that. One sergeant-type was asked why the troops took civvy Garmins etc. into the field knowing full well they had no anti-jam or anti-spoof protection like you'd have with a keyed PLGR, and this guy answered:

"Let's put it this way...how many of you are using the same cordless phone you used 10 years ago?"

Still, GPS jammers are readily available on the open market (one big source is Russia) and if the Hajis ever get technical enough to deploy them over a wide area - your keyed mil-GPS receiver of whatever size and weight will be your only salvation (at least until someone RDFs the jammer and turns the surrounding square mile into a smoking crater.) Nice having the bells and whistles of something like a Garmin Oregon 400T (are you listening, Santa?) or something you wear on your wrist - but not much good in Hajiland if they adopt jammers in any big way. Still...likelihood of that happening is in the order of zilch...and the troops know it.

You could load up a hop set oon some of those quasi-demilled radio's though. Just no internal encryption of the voice/data. Could combine it with some of those crypto module's he has though. Would be able to talk to anyone but yourself

Apparently the SINCGARS come out with the ECCM (hop) cards left in them and the ECCM capability intact, though you'd still have to load all the variables. Seen HAVE QUICK radios come out intact too (PRC-113, ARC-164), so if you can load TOD and WOD and pick the same NET ID...you're good for hopping. It's all just intellectual collector curiosity though. Still waaaaay too many variables to access anyone's operational miliitary net if one had other than collector's intentions.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Columbia Electronics also sells radios previously used or issued by US Government.

Main page.
mbia Electronics International, Inc.

Their page on the PRC113.
AN/PRC-113(V)

Paul Keys sells mainly to friendly foreign nations using a pricing formula that's sort of x-% of the original Magnavox sales price to the Government rather than what the collector market can typically bear, but Columbia's a business rather than our favourite vendor at the Hamfest and prices things accordingly. To be fair he probably has to pay big $$$ to get them and just adds his markup, but still - it all winds up out of range of most collectors. (But after all, we're not the target market anyway.) He has *some* deals now and then on smaller accessory-type things, but mostly if you don't see a price listed - don't bother asking - as you'll get bitten by the old adage:

"If you have to ask -- you can't afford it!"

 

[ecupirate]

Another period correct option would be the AN/PRC 148 MBITR, manufactured by THALES. Some of you will recognize this as the handheld radio and that is its main purpose. However there is a sled mount that two radios can slide in too so it can be used on a vehicle platform. The replica 148's are all over ebay because the airsoft crowd uses them however I haven't seen the actual vehicle mount that accepts the two radios anywhere but over here. The ASIP is currently what you will mainly see in theater, however we actually have a couple trucks set up with the 148. Reason I mention it is since the replica radio is fairly cheap, i have seen them as low as $100, it might be a little cheaper option than the singars, asips and the like. You would just need to find the drop in module and the sled it sits on which actually mounts on the tray. With it being such new stuff though it might be more of a challenge but you may be able to fabricate something that would work.

I don't have much going on tommorow I'll try and get you a pic of the 148 setup. It will give me something to do.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Another period correct option would be the AN/PRC 148 MBITR, manufactured by THALES. (...) With it being such new stuff though it might be more of a challenge but you may be able to fabricate something that would work.

I don't have much going on tommorow I'll try and get you a pic of the 148 setup. It will give me something to do.

They're cool. One guy in Israel had a number of the sleds for sale for what I thought was a decent price awhile ago, though the bits and pieces that go with the system and the MBITRs themselves...good luck.

The Chinese folks are on their MBITR Copy MKII at the moment, according to airsofting friends. I did see one of the first versions (some of which are still up on Ebay) and their fit/finish overall quality was somewhat south of Very Poor. I gather they've taken steps to correct some of it but not having seen Chinacopy Mk II -- I can't really say for sure.

MBITR with the various amps etc. needed for some specific installation seems the way to go for just about everything, IMO, and if they standardized the radio across the board the price-per-copy would probably come down dramatically. Most users I've spoken to seem to like them. Instead we seem to be stuck in endless Software Defined Radio developmentia.

 

[ecupirate]

Yeah I would definately say if you do come across a real military MBITR you need to stay away because it is flat out stolen. I like the radio, but we have had better luck with our ASIP setups simply due to the fact that most guys were used to using them as manpacks as well but that familiarization issue could and can be overcome with more use and training.. The ASIP for vehicle ops seems more user friendly but that varies by the user, especially if you are changing net ID's on the fly, changing freqs on the MBITR can be a pain. Some of our guys love the MBITR sled though the one I took pictures off the guy stands by it and has taken it and mounted it in any other truck he has had to drive due to maintenance and turn-ins. As for the Chinese copies I have never personally seen one but the quality issue is not suprise.

I took some pictures today so everyone would know what setup we are talking about. Also included one of the latest evolution of the 1151.

 

[UsRangerWanabee]

Wat kind of radio would you put in a hmmwv if your restoring it

 

[nf6x]

Wat kind of radio would you put in a hmmwv if your restoring it

That'll depend on what particular configuration you want for your HMMWV, what era in the life of the HMMWV (which has spanned more than one radio generation so far) that you're trying to restore it to, how much money you are willing to spend, and (in the case of the latest radios) whether the radios are available at all. There are so many options.

If you just want a "correct" radio and don't have any particular configuration/era in mind, then an AN/VRC-12 series radio set would probably be the least expensive and most easily available option. This would be any of the various radio sets composed of an RT-524 or RT-246, optionally including an R-442 auxiliary receiver. An early SINCGARS set would be a more up-to-date option, but would be MUCH more expensive.

Here are a few old pictures of the AN/VRC-47 (part of the AN/VRC-12 series) radio set in my HMMWV:

http://www.nf6x.net/greentruck/truck2/p18.jpg
http://www.nf6x.net/greentruck/truck2/p19.jpg
http://www.nf6x.net/greentruck/truck2/p20.jpg

My truck now has an AN/GRC-122B radio teletype system shelter on its back, as you can see in my avatar picture. That's a lot more radio than most HMMWV restorers would ever want, though!

 

[papakb]

DoctorCheney,


There's a whole lot of great information posted here and being a radio guy I found some of it to be new and very interesting but I think we missed the point of your original posting. When trying to decide what radio to put in your vehicle the first thing you need to think about is what do you want to do with it and who do you want to talk to and how much money you want to commit to.


If you're trying to keep everything military then all of the options listed here are good ones, HOWEVER, with the exception of the PRC-148 (MBITR) all of these radios operate in the VHF low bands and require a license to operate legally. Most of our operations are done in the 51.00 - 51.20 Mhz region which falls into the 6 meter amateur radio band. There isn't much radio traffic there but a license is still required. Dollar wise this is the expensive way to go.


You can get a basic technicians license by picking up a copy of the test guide at Radio Shack and taking a test with a volunteer examiner in your area.


If you just need to be able to talk with others in a convoy or trail riding then the FRS series of family radios are easier and cheaper to use than the military stuff. FRS and MGRS radios are available without requiring a license and have excellant range. They're available in most electronics stores, Best Buy, Target, Fry's, Radio Shack.


There's also still the citizens band radios down in the 27 Mhz band available very inexpensively. The nice thing about them is there available everywhere and accessories are plentiful, you just have to find an open channel and ignore the children with their high power amps and echo mikes and obscenities.


My $.02 worth.


Kurt Lesser