• Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!

  • Microsoft MSN, Live, Hotmail, Outlook email users may not be receiving emails. We are working to resolve this issue. Please add support@steelsoldiers.com to your trusted contacts.

Why GL Deuces have no Brakes

paulfarber

New member
1,081
20
0
Location
Gordon, PA
The brake shoes have springs to push the pistons back to neutral. Any volume loss of fluid would be immediately be adjusted for by the brake shoe spring pulling (well, pushing actually) the pistons together.

On any properly adjusted shoe type brake the pistons are always under compression due to said spring (it keeps the shoes from rubbing the drum).
 

gringeltaube

Staff Member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
6,986
2,522
113
Location
Montevideo/Uruguay
..........
On any properly adjusted shoe type brake the pistons are always under compression due to said spring (it keeps the shoes from rubbing the drum).
emmmm...... not when no brakes are applied! The return springs actually keep the shoes resting against their excentric adjuster stops.
In a correctly vented system at rest the pressure inside the WC is equivalent to only about 20" of brake fluid column. Specific gravity for DOT5 being almost 1 that converts to about 0.72 psi! Not a lot really and possibly a good reason for using cup expanders....

G.
 

AMGeneral

Well-known member
2,301
115
63
Location
Connelly Springs, NC
Ok,

After reading through this thread twice,it seems the culprits are seeming to be the spring loaded check valve that most deuces(and 5 tons) have installed on the M/C cap and the afore mentioned square shouldered wheel cylinder cup springs.

I guess this explains why my GMC deuces sit for any length of time and never lose their brakes,they still have a seperate breather line connected to a main breather line leading up to the air cleaner.

Then again,all my MVs have been switched over to DOT 3 fluid,maybe that is a factor as well?

Dunno
 

paulfarber

New member
1,081
20
0
Location
Gordon, PA
emmmm...... not when no brakes are applied! The return springs actually keep the shoes resting against their excentric adjuster stops.
In a correctly vented system at rest the pressure inside the WC is equivalent to only about 20" of brake fluid column. Specific gravity for DOT5 being almost 1 that converts to about 0.72 psi! Not a lot really and possibly a good reason for using cup expanders....

G.
In a correctly vented system the pressure in the MC is 14.7 or whatever the barometric pressure is. The fluid in the lines is horizontal and thus not adding/removing any 'head' in the reservoir.

I *really* don't think the that the spring in the vent is that fast acting that it will slam shut, and stay shut in the HOURS it takes for a parked MC to achieve these mythical pressure differentials.

I mean yes, in mythbusters terms this is a PLAUSIBLE scenario.. but in real life the vent is NOT that that sensitive, and the pressures are not changing that rapidly by air temp/pressure alone.

I mean the vent is designed to close when water hits it. Not at single mililbar per hour pressure differentials... its not that kind of check valve.

Lets go line by line from the OP:

If the truck is used regularly, the brakes will stay pumped up, and the DOT5 will keep the piston cup expanded just from regular use.

There is no pressure in the system when parked. Its essentially just liquid in the tubes. If the MC piston is not applying pressure, the system is at basically atmospheric pressure with no force being applied to the brakes.
When air gets hot, it expands, and so it happens in the reservoir of the deuce master cylinder. The pressure caused by this expansion makes the one-way air vent burp the air out. But when it gets cold again, the air contracts, and sucks on the one-way air vent. Because the vent is one-way, the suction cannot be relieved through the vent, so it is reflected through the DOT5, and draws in the wheel cylinders instead.

Where is this mythical heat coming from on a PARKED vehicle?
 
Last edited:

rlwm211

Active member
1,648
18
38
Location
Guilford, NY
The master Cylinder hydraulic Check valve is designed to keep about 5 PSI of pressure on the wheel cylinders to keep the cups in the wheel cylinders sealed against the casting/bore. That is the primary method of seeing to it the piston cups in the wheel cylinder are properly sealed and also ready to operate. This is striaght from the Wagner brake handbook.

If you have ever taken a master cylinder apart and tried to overcome the check valve you will find that the older and worn master cylinder's check valve may not hold any pressure at all.

No doubt the pressure bleeds off in time and that can take us back to the discussion of the correct springs in the wheel cylinders.

I believe that one of the contributing factors on these trucks being replaced is the brake system issues we are finding with trucks that have been sidelined for a long period of time whether it be from lack of need, or other mechanical problems. I would bet big money that my deuce was red tagged for a brake failure as evidenced by the hood and grill and radiator damage from a minor collision that had occured and the truck had obviously been depot rebuilt just before the accident.

I followed the same pattern of bleeding and losing brakes, rebuilt one wheel cylinder and finally replaced them all with new parts. As I recall they all were Star brand wheel cylinders.

Another issue that must be addressed is that when the system is empty due to a leaking wheel cylinder, the master and the air pack will corrode and that is not maybe or possibly, THEY WILL CORRODE in the hydraulic bores. That iron/steel is very susceptible to corrosion.

My master was so bad I had to replace it as the amount of material that had to be removed to clean the bore took it so far out of spec I did not want to trust it. My air pack needed to be rebuilt as well and it was in better shape than I thought it would be. Since these trucks are single circuit brake system equipped you cannot allow any marginal parts to stay in the system because the lives of everyone around you as well as your own depend on all of these seals collectively and if one fails the entire system can fail.

Another point, my master cap is fully vented and does not have any device to seal it. It is tied directly into the master air vent line from the air pack and others and runs up under the hood near the air cleaner and was at one point connected to the air cleaner body.

Maybe I am excessively fussy with the brakes on my deuce, but I would rather do the work once and get it right than do it several times over a period of a couple of years.

Just my two cents of thought here....

RL
 
Last edited:

stumps

Active member
1,700
12
38
Location
Maryland
In a correctly vented system the pressure in the MC is 14.7 or whatever the barometric pressure is. The fluid in the lines is horizontal and thus not adding/removing any 'head' in the reservoir.
Sorry, no. The atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi, but it presses equally on everything in the atmosphere. It presses on the inside of a vented master cylinder with 14.7 psi, and it presses on the outside of the master cylinder with 14.7 psi. The pressure differential across the pistons, etc. is ZERO due to the atmospheric pressure. Look up PSIA, and PSIG on google.
I *really* don't think the that the spring in the vent is that fast acting that it will slam shut, and stay shut in the HOURS it takes for a parked MC to achieve these mythical pressure differentials.
Have you ever taken one apart? It is simply a stiff rubber disk with a very light weight coil spring on the atmosphere side of it. It will move very quickly. From my testing, it takes about 1/2 psi pressure differential to open one. One that isn't stuck, that is.
I mean yes, in mythbusters terms this is a PLAUSIBLE scenario.. but in real life the vent is NOT that that sensitive, and the pressures are not changing that rapidly by air temp/pressure alone.
That opinion is based on what testing? I've checked the bobble heads on my truck, and about 1/2 psi is all it takes to make one vent. And they do not leak back.
I mean the vent is designed to close when water hits it. Not at single mililbar per hour pressure differentials... its not that kind of check valve.
We aren't talking about barometric pressure changes, we are talking about pressure changes in a sealed vessel due to drastic temperature changes. You can crush those cheap 1 gallon rectangular metal solvent cans by sealing them when they are out in the sun, and then letting them cool over night.
Lets go line by line from the OP:

If the truck is used regularly, the brakes will stay pumped up, and the DOT5 will keep the piston cup expanded just from regular use.

There is no pressure in the system when parked. Its essentially just liquid in the tubes. If the MC piston is not applying pressure, the system is at basically atmospheric pressure with no force being applied to the brakes.
That liquid has a certain amount of head due to the master cylinder (and its reservoir) being above the wheel cylinders. It isn't much head pressure, but it is about 1/2 to 1 psi.
When air gets hot, it expands, and so it happens in the reservoir of the deuce master cylinder. The pressure caused by this expansion makes the one-way air vent burp the air out. But when it gets cold again, the air contracts, and sucks on the one-way air vent. Because the vent is one-way, the suction cannot be relieved through the vent, so it is reflected through the DOT5, and draws in the wheel cylinders instead.

Where is this mythical heat coming from on a PARKED vehicle?
The Sun, and the air temperature. Does your car get hot when it is parked in the Sun? Mine sure does. Does it get cool at night? Again mine does. When the Sun is boring down on the trucks, they get toasty hot. When night falls, they get sometimes down right cold. If the truck sits for a season, in the summer, during the day, the air bleeds out past the bobble head vent. At night, and in the winter, it gets cold, and the air space in the master cylinder contracts sucking on the hydraulic system.

-Chuck
 

stumps

Active member
1,700
12
38
Location
Maryland
The master Cylinder hydraulic Check valve is designed to keep about 5 PSI of pressure on the wheel cylinders to keep the cups in the wheel cylinders sealed against the casting/bore. That is the primary method of seeing to it the piston cups in the wheel cylinder are properly sealed and also ready to operate. This is striaght from the Wagner brake handbook.
Given that I cannot create 5 psi by puffing with my cheeks, and I can overcome the spring on a properly working bobble head check valve, I think you, or they, forgot to put a "0." in front of that 5. Also, that 5 ( or 0.5? ) psi has to come from somewhere.... It isn't going to magically appear just because a bobble head was installed.... In a differential under operation, you get pressure creation due to the rather significant heating of the oil, and the evaporation of any moisture in that oil. When the differential cools down, all that gas that was created and bled past the bobble head contracts, leaving a partial vacuum in the axle.

There is no mechanism where normal operation could create pressure inside of a master cylinder, other than it getting hot outside.

Vacuum is the only possible result from using properly working bobble head check valves on differentials, and master cylinders.
If you have ever taken a master cylinder apart and tried to overcome the check valve you will find that the older and worn master cylinder's check valve may not hold any pressure at all.
I have, and all of the bobble head valves on my truck were like brand new ( and heaven knows how old ) straight from GL. I don't think that is an unusual situation. All of those on axles and gear cases had the internal check valve disks stuck tight. I had to stick a rod in the hole to break the rubber loose from its seat.
No doubt the pressure bleeds off in time and that can take us back to the discussion of the correct springs in the wheel cylinders.

I believe that one of the contributing factors on these trucks being replaced is the brake system issues we are finding with trucks that have been sidelined for a long period of time whether it be from lack of need, or other mechanical problems. I would bet big money that my deuce was red tagged for a brake failure as evidenced by the hood and grill and radiator damage from a minor collision that had occured and the truck had obviously been depot rebuilt just before the accident.

I followed the same pattern of bleeding and losing brakes, rebuilt one wheel cylinder and finally replaced them all with new parts. As I recall they all were Star brand wheel cylinders.

Another issue that must be addressed is that when the system is empty due to a leaking wheel cylinder, the master and the air pack will corrode and that is not maybe or possibly, THEY WILL CORRODE in the hydraulic bores. That iron/steel is very susceptible to corrosion.
Not so much so with DOT5. I took apart my leaking wheel cylinder, and it was pristine inside. The bore was shiny from one end to the other. Silicon brake fluid creeps, and repels moisture. That is why it is used.
My master was so bad I had to replace it as the amount of material that had to be removed to clean the bore took it so far out of spec I did not want to trust it. My air pack needed to be rebuilt as well and it was in better shape than I thought it would be. Since these trucks are single circuit brake system equipped you cannot allow any marginal parts to stay in the system because the lives of everyone around you as well as your own depend on all of these seals collectively and if one fails the entire system can fail.

Another point, my master cap is fully vented and does not have any device to seal it. It is tied directly into the master air vent line from the air pack and others and runs up under the hood near the air cleaner and was at one point connected to the air cleaner body.

Maybe I am excessively fussy with the brakes on my deuce, but I would rather do the work once and get it right than do it several times over a period of a couple of years.

Just my two cents of thought here....

RL
I have no doubt that many of the deuces that arrived without brakes are due to poor maintenance, like yours, but many certainly were like mine. Mine looked like the PMCS items were done on a schedule, even though the truck had not moved since the last time the PMCS was done.

-Chuck
 

stumps

Active member
1,700
12
38
Location
Maryland
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce/42567-master-cylinder-vent-line-vs-breather.html

It appears that its NOT temprature related at all... the gas tank and MC are connected, so the gas tank can put a vacuum on the MC.

The fix is in the PM article.
I have read that article, and it only applies to trucks that have a copper vent tube where the bobble head vent would go. The tube joins with the fuel tank vent, and ends up in the air cleaner. Because the vent tube is large, and is open at the air cleaner end, it would not be able to put any vacuum, or pressure, on the master cylinder.

Also, note that the article came out long before the conversion to silicone brake fluid. Any kind of fumes and moisture would be murder on the old DOT3 systems.... not so much on DOT5 systems.

-Chuck
 

stumps

Active member
1,700
12
38
Location
Maryland
Chuck, I believe RL was refering to the residual pressure valve, not the vent. It should maintain 6-8psi on the WC boots. On vehicles with disc brakes, the circuit without drums gets it removed.

For those wantint to read more in depth, http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/brake02.pdf page 8 refers to this.
I can't say that I am familiar with that valve. I don't believe I have ever seen one on a master cylinder.

If there is one on the deuce, it could also be the source of the air getting into the wheel cylinders.

-Chuck
 

TexAndy

Active member
1,427
15
38
Location
Bee County, Texas
I can attest that the vent on the MC cap being stuck can cause no brakes.

Just picked one up and with vent out, brakes were fine. Vent in, brakes went almost to the floor. Vent is stuck.
 

lavarok

Well-known member
1,119
33
48
Location
Fellsmere, FL
This is an interesting thread as I just dealt with a leaking wheel cylinder on a M109A3 (see avatar). The trucks sits unused most of the time and the front passenger side started leaking. I tore it down and rebuilt using a new star kit (Odiron) with the proper springs. The spring in the unit was the "bad" type as depicted previously in the thread.

The thing is, as noted by others already, my wheel cylinder was pristine. It was not that old and looked brand new. Why it leaked was troubling me. I am pretty sure the MC is vented per the PS mag article, but need to see if the end is a bobble head or what ?

Time to investigate further!

Thanks for posting this thread.
 

danny81

New member
57
0
0
Location
Advance, Mo
I just received my order of six wheel cylinder rebuild kits, and all of them have the square shoulder springs. Has anybody had problems from using these? Should I send them back and look elsewhere for the correct spring?
I'd hate to waste all that time rebuilding and replacing, just to have them start leaking.
 

SMOKEWAGON66

New member
1,144
21
0
Location
California
I know this obviously has been covered by many pages of great information so Ill just add my experience in active duty when some units still had deuce's and have personally driven M35's and 939 series into DRMO yards for turn in. In Alaska, we were getting all new vehicles (FMTV's :cry:) so we had turn in all our old trucks...we had like 15 M35's and 30 or so 939 5-tons...DRMO will not take a vehicle for turn in if it leaks anything so what do active duty wrench monkeys do? They drain the oil from everything, wipe it off and drive it in....Some of our deuce's had no brakes and the drivers would jam reverse to stop or use the park brake. Some active duty drivers and mechanics abuse the heck out of military equipment because they aint paying for it...
 

F18hornetM

Active member
1,135
10
38
Location
Ocean City, Md
well the M813 i picked up had no brakes. master cylinder was full but I found 2 sets of brakes adjusted the wrong direction. Funny as the truck has all new wheel cylinders, not even a small amount of rust on the bleeders or lines. After adjusting those 2 wheels, [on the rear and different axles] it stops great. not sure what was up with that, unless the guy who put the wheel cylinders in dindt know how to adjust the brakes. But i find that hard to believe really.
 
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website like our supporting vendors. Their ads help keep Steel Soldiers going. Please consider disabling your ad blockers for the site. Thanks!

I've Disabled AdBlock
No Thanks