winch cable experts?

[jeffhuey1n]

As a crew chief on H-53's, H-3's, H-60's (rescue hoist) and H-1's (again, rescue hoist); my fellow crew chiefs and I became experts on our winches, 2 each rated at 10K pulling strength (H-53; can't remember what the rating was on our HH-3E's) . Never, ever, ever use anything but the exact part in the manual. If there is the slightest kink in the cable, replace it. Never ever stand anywhere along the length of the cable. The cable can snap. Why you may ask? We didn't use the cables every day so a general inspection before use won't show internal breakdown. Never over load the cable. If it's rated at 10K 10,001 lbs is overloaded, replace the cable. I realize in the aircraft world, we're a might bit retentive on certain aspects of the job; safety being the #1 consideration. Always ask yourself: is this cable worth dying for? I've had to sit through my fair share of horrible safety films with graphic pictures of muilated knuckle heads that didn't follow the book to the letter.

I'll now get off my soap box and turn this over to the regularly scheduled thread. By the way, my two winches need new cables. They're both the 10K M35 winches. Does anyone have a good source?

 

[Squirt-Truck]

I will snag some of the pictures for reference, hopefully tomorrow.
The synthetic is lighter. easier to handle and has an ever decreasing strength. For example, full rated pulls can only be done once, then the derating starts.
Just a little info, it is virtually impossible to inspect synthetic rope, opening it to look inside causes more damage.
Recoil.....yes the dreaded recoil on failure, how does a roughly 90% increase in recoil velocity grab you, yes synthetic recoils and EXTREMELY fast, and recoil energy changes with the square of the velocity. Lighter weight is no substitute for all that speed.
Last item, for repeated use, and I mean from a MAJOR supplier, of top quality synthetic , they recommend a 1" rope for a 15K winch and annual replacement.
(FWIW, I have had to provide testimony relative to these items in fatality cases.)

 

[jeffhuey1n]

Sorry to hear you had to deal with those type cases...you are not alone in that respect. To add to your info on the synthetic rope: the AF used to catch missiles. Hunh? Catch Missiles? Yup. We had a 10K specialized winch in a couple modified HH-53Cs. Someone would launch a missile with a parachute installed. Once it reached it's target location, the chute would pop and we'd enter the picture. We would snatch the chute with a couple (again) specially made hooks attached to a 10K synthetiic cable. the cable was only used once. Once the bird came home there was a list on the wall of people who wanted one. I lucked out and got mine just before transfering out. If I remember correctly it was 100' long and wrapped in a OD green sleeve. Once you removed the sleeve, it rolled open to it's full size of about 3" wide by 1/4" thick. Used once and thrown away because it would shear if we tried to catch another missile/drone/rocket/UFO. JUST KIDDING ABOUT THE UFO!!!!

 

[swbradley1]

Incorrect cable breaks, bad things happen.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o67iGu3E8Gc&playnext=1&list=PL6C70B9300DB364AF&feature=results_main[/media]

 

[cjcottrill]

If you search the previous threads, you will find a lot of finger slapping and toe stomping on this one. That being said, I went to a local crane shop, asked if they had any 1/2" cable thinking I could by 200' from a spool. The operator said he had a full take off spool from a recent change out. He told me he would be more than happy if i hauled it off. I have used it for self recovery with and without a snatch block with no problems. Operate the winch from the drivers seat, make sure no people are within the safety zone, don't over load it, remember the load pull rating of the winch changes with the amount on the spool - you get the picture. Lots of good reading material here, and once you get past the "read the TM's", lots of good advice and free training. take advantage of it all. As far as the finger slapping and toe stomping go, I wear gloves a steel toed boots-it doesn't hurt anymore.

 

[sigo]

There was an incident recently, where a M984 crew were sent to a 'downed' truck, didn't return to base, then another M984 was sent out and they found the crews of both trucks dead because the rigging failed and it was a big mess. All the 984 guys were fully H8 trained/certified and experienced, with un-modified equip. You have been warned!

That's a pretty significant event in terms of Army accidents. I'm tied in to the Army safety network fairly well but I haven't heard of this one. Where and when did it occur? Class A accidents are tracked very well, if this actually did happen I can get more details. I would find it hard to believe the unit was successful in covering up or not reporting multiple deaths due to equipment failure.

 

[Csm Davis]

I will snag some of the pictures for reference, hopefully tomorrow.
The synthetic is lighter. easier to handle and has an ever decreasing strength. For example, full rated pulls can only be done once, then the derating starts.
Just a little info, it is virtually impossible to inspect synthetic rope, opening it to look inside causes more damage.
Recoil.....yes the dreaded recoil on failure, how does a roughly 90% increase in recoil velocity grab you, yes synthetic recoils and EXTREMELY fast, and recoil energy changes with the square of the velocity. Lighter weight is no substitute for all that speed.
Last item, for repeated use, and I mean from a MAJOR supplier, of top quality synthetic , they recommend a 1" rope for a 15K winch and annual replacement.
(FWIW, I have had to provide testimony relative to these items in fatality cases.)

Squirt-truck I am not wanting an argument but want to know more. Please enlighten us with name brands and specifics of problems you know of I don't want to spend more money on a lesser product, or have a unsafe rig. You don't have to go into what damage was done or who to. Just the specifics of the wirerope failures and testing done. opcorn:

 

[zebedee]

That's a pretty significant event in terms of Army accidents. I'm tied in to the Army safety network fairly well but I haven't heard of this one. Where and when did it occur? Class A accidents are tracked very well, if this actually did happen I can get more details. I would find it hard to believe the unit was successful in covering up or not reporting multiple deaths due to equipment failure.

Well Sigo, that's all I have. It was a discussion with a local heavy recovery operator - not sure if it may have come from a trade journal.

I'd hate to think I was 'sold a plum' but I could quite imagine this happening - I've seen the plenty of safety vids/pics of old style construction incidents - rope operated dozers and scrapers etc., and the point is - ropes - cables or what ever are subject to stresses, wear etc., so operators need to be carefull.

Next time I see him, I'll ply a little pressure for some more info.

 

[sigo]

Well Sigo, that's all I have. It was a discussion with a local heavy recovery operator - not sure if it may have come from a trade journal.

I'd hate to think I was 'sold a plum' but I could quite imagine this happening - I've seen the plenty of safety vids/pics of old style construction incidents - rope operated dozers and scrapers etc., and the point is - ropes - cables or what ever are subject to stresses, wear etc., so operators need to be carefull.

Next time I see him, I'll ply a little pressure for some more info.

I'm definitely not trying to downplay the hazards of recovery operations, but this accident didn't happen. At least not in the Army from 2000 to 2012. There isn't even anything that remotely comes close to the accident described. I can go back further as time permits, perhaps it occurred earlier than 2000.

 

[zebedee]

Well thanks for the research even though it makes me look like a complete monkeys armpity. I guess it was a tall tail, trying to impress me!

 

[sigo]

Don't sweat it, the point of the post comes across. Vehicle recovery is indeed dangerous and all who participate must do so with caution, no matter what previous experience you have.

 

[connectingbar]

And dont forget folks, buy American cable and not the cheap China made crap. American made cable is made to a stricter standard than the off shore stuff. Please take my word for it because I use cables every day in my work with cranes up to 400 tons and it does matter. Check out Haynes supply or any other rigging supplier @ the country. If you go to Fastenall please ask for American made.

The size cable in the TM's is correct so stick with it.

Enjoy and happy winching

 

[TeamRecovery]

The synthetic is lighter. easier to handle and has an ever decreasing strength. For example, full rated pulls can only be done once, then the derating starts.
Just a little info, it is virtually impossible to inspect synthetic rope, opening it to look inside causes more damage.
Recoil.....yes the dreaded recoil on failure, how does a roughly 90% increase in recoil velocity grab you, yes synthetic recoils and EXTREMELY fast, and recoil energy changes with the square of the velocity. Lighter weight is no substitute for all that speed.
Last item, for repeated use, and I mean from a MAJOR supplier, of top quality synthetic , they recommend a 1" rope for a 15K winch and annual replacement.
(FWIW, I have had to provide testimony relative to these items in fatality cases.)

I know this is an old post, but Squirt-Truck didn't reply to Csm Davis' request for more details, and I'm curious as well. 1" for a 15K winch doesn't sound right to me, and neither does annual replacement. Also, seems like the points stated about synthetic would apply to wire rope as well - wire rope decreases in strength with each pull; that's just a function of fatigue. Also impossible to inspect inside. And the recoil on synthetic may be faster (I have no data) but it is still safer because it doesn't whip around and unwind when it breaks.

 

[Csm Davis]

Oops I answered the wrong post, but he did answer me by pm but details he cannot give.