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Winch question

goodwithwood35

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With the PTO in neutral, winch drum unlocked, winch clutch shifter in the OUT position, no cable on the drum, how hard should it be to rotate the winch driveshaft? I tried to rotate the driveshaft by hand with the above conditions and it won't budge unless I put a pry bar in the u joints and even then it is difficult.

I CAN freely spin the drum by hand. The drag "band" brake is backed out all the way as is the free spoiling brake. Fresh 90w GL-1 in both sides of the winch per TM.

Just got this winch back together after replacing all the seals and the shifter shaft. I have not attempted to allow the PTO to spin the winch as designed in FWD or REV yet.

I'm not too familiar with the how hard it should be to spin yet, this is on a wo/w to w/w upgrade project. Wanted to ask the experts first before I attempt to do this and to re-spool the drum with cable. Other than that, all went well with the upgrade.
 

goodwithwood35

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You might have to remove the cover and check that band-brake assembly again.

Read my posts, here: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?65900-Winch-brake-band-assembly




G.
Ok. Removed the cover and the band brake completely off the brake drum. It looks good with a lot of lining left and is round. Propeller shaft still does not spin by hand even with brake removed, although slightly easier, I can turn it with a 24" bar through a u-joint, but still doesn't seem right. Definitely not hand moveable whatsoever.

I'm thinking I have a gear lash issue. Gonna try to check that with a dial. I used the same thickness gasket that came off it when I put it back together. I assumed all was good as the previous owner said it was working when removed from his truck.

However it had a piece of broken aluminum shear pin in the end of the worm gear when I got it. Hmmm.

The plot thickens...
 

bigmike

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Drop the winch driveshaft and try to turn each end without the shaft in place. If they both spin freely, you probably have an issue with "load" on the gears.
 

goodwithwood35

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Drop the winch driveshaft and try to turn each end without the shaft in place. If they both spin freely, you probably have an issue with "load" on the gears.
That's the next move, then check end play at the brake end of the worm gear with a dial per TM. I know the PTO spun freely in neutral. Not sure how the winch end spun. Tough lesson learned in knowing existing conditions prior to tear down.
 

Floridianson

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The ones I have worked on even with the band brake off I could not turn the winch input by hand without barring it over with something.
 

gringeltaube

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My only possible explanation to that would be if the wormshaft (ball)bearings #6309 were rough- and/or somehow preloaded?
Because the two oil seals alone can't offer that much of resistance to spin it by hand. And the drum-shaft & gear should not be binding either, if all was correctly assembled.

IMO you should be able to move that shaft in either direction by hand just by grabbing its Ø1-1/4"-nose, with the brake band removed that is.



G.
 

goodwithwood35

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Now I'm puzzled. I removed the propeller shaft from the truck, removed the rear gearbox cover/seal plate and exposed the bearing. No luck. Did the same on the front: removed brake drum and brake housing. Still no luck, and both times I tried to turn the worm gear with a 10" alignment punch through the shear pin hole. I never removed the worm gear, bull gear, or drum shaft to replace the seals. I do remember the worm gear easily turning the bull gear and drum shaft while the end housing (clutch side) was removed. So next step I'm gonna pull the winch off the truck and check things on that side, and check the worm gear bearings. Since nothing mechanical was really touched on the drive side (besides seals and that didn't really alter anything), I suspect I have an alignment issue or bent drum shaft on the clutch side since I was able to spin the worm and bull gears together when the end housing was removed.
 

m16ty

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I had to add a couple of gaskets when I installed my worm as just one gasket had everything too tight. Loosen the bolts on the input shaft cover and see if the winch loosens up.
 

goodwithwood35

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I had to add a couple of gaskets when I installed my worm as just one gasket had everything too tight. Loosen the bolts on the input shaft cover and see if the winch loosens up.
I have both sides removed completely so bearings are visible-input side and the brake housing. No difference. Worm will not spin without a great effort.
 

goodwithwood35

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This weekend I removed the winch completely from the deuce and sat it on a bench. Drained all fluids, removed the propeller shaft cap, tried to spin the shaft. No difference. Installed it again and removed the entire brake housing assembly, no difference. Removed both the brake housing and input shaft cap, no difference. Pulled the engagement housing completely off and sat the drum shaft in both vertical and horizontal positions, no difference. Removed the drum from the shaft, along with thrust washers and the clutch and repeated the last step, no difference. Decided to open up the gearbox end and remove the worm and bull gears as these were untouched on the re-seal job I did previously. When I removed the end cover I noticed there is spot on the center of the cover, where the sleeve bearing sits, that the bull gear rides on. Seeing as this is a friction point I tried to spin the worm gear with this cover removed. Bingo! It rotated completely by hand. Of course it was unloaded as it was only spinning the shaft not the drum nor any other of the components. So now I have a starting point. I also noticed the drum shaft was protruding about 0.08" further than the cover would allow so it was definitely binding here. I noticed the shaft was not quite sitting where it should. So I pulled the shaft and bull gear. I didn't notice any abnormal wear here. I drive out the worm gear and bearing. Nothing out of the ordinary and the bearings were cleaned out and inspected. They looked brand new. The drum shaft did have some light corrosion on it, when I got the winch there was some water mixed with the oil, so I attributed it to that. I remember the drum going on with a little effort, so I must have somehow moved the shaft into the gearbox slightly more than it should have, which caused some misalignment of the worm to bull gear, along with excessive friction on the end cover. So I put everything back together as per the TM. Replaced all the woodruff keys. Reinstalled the brake assembly and the propeller shaft cover. However I left the gearbox cover off to make sure the shaft didn't move on me again during reassembly. So I spun the worm gear and it still turned by hand. I then resealed the end cover and tried to turn the worm again. It was definitely harder that before this step, but easier than before the tear down. So I checked the shaft. It didn't move. Going back to my trash pile of paper towels and the old seals and gaskets, I noticed the gasket that came off originally during the reseal job was much thicker than the new one. In fact, it had several layers of gaskets laminated together how the TM tells you how to set backlash on the PTO and the propeller shaft winch gaskets. Hmmm. So I mic'd the old gaskets and made a trip to Autozone and picked up some gasket material and cut out a few pieces to equal the old thickness. Checked the end-play on the worm shaft (0.09--within spec) Reinstalled the end cover with the new thicker gaskets...success, no more binding and I could turn the completely assembled winch by hand. Reinstalled on the truck with the propeller shaft and fresh 90w. With the PTO in neutral I could now spin the propeller shaft by hand and turn the winch.

Sure glad I went through all this before I actually used the PTO to drive the winch and pull a load with it. I think some serious damage would have resulted and much more costly than some new seals and gaskets, and time.

Thanks all for the help with this issue. I knew something just wasn't right.
 

goodwithwood35

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I wish the TM would have said to check the end play/position of the drum shaft and add gaskets to it ect. Someone had obviously been here before and stacked about 6 thin gaskets together (0.062" total). Well, lesson learned and now at least I can say I can pull a winch from a deuce in less than 30 mins, same for the reinstall.
 

gringeltaube

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Glad you found the problem!

From your description of how much force it took to move I believe it was the brass gear itself that was binding, not the shaft end bottoming out inside the cover?
Because after reading your story I remembered that in order to completely eliminate that large gasket on the gear housing end cover - to be able to seal it with just Loctite 518 - I had to do some facing (via lathe) of the cover inner button to remove maybe .04", to make just enough room again for the brass gear to spin freely.



G.
 
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