undysworld
Member
- 493
- 9
- 18
- Location
- Blue Mounds, WI
He is MOST DEFINITELY INCORRECT.
I just sent an email to John Varden MVPA about it.
WisDOT is attempting to introduce legislation "sometime in '09, hopefully" to address this. In the meantime, the owners of Pinzgauers are OFF THE ROAD.
Please look up http://www.wisconsin-pinzgauers.org/
Right now, the site is closed to the public, you must join to see what's there.
Tell Tom that Paul refered you, and you'll get in.
The site will go public in a few days, and we'll lay out our argument - why we have been wronged, the legal reasons behind our case, some suggestions for resolving the issue, and ways for the public to speak their minds.
This issue is FAR from being resolved.
Thank you ALL for your support. Any questions? Call or write me. I'm happy to discuss it.
Determinedly,
Paul Underwood
608 437-3465
ps: this is what we presented to WisDOT at the last meeting. Sorry it's so long:
STEYR-PUCH PINZGAUERS AND WISCONSIN
The operating privileges for Wisconsin owners of Steyr-Puch Pinzgauers were cancelled by WisDOT, effective September 25, 2007. We, the owners, believe this action was unwarranted and that their policy has been unfairly applied. Described by the press as "the most expensive four-wheeler in the world" and a "hand-made, low-production, high quality item", (Q) the Pinzgauer merits reconsideration. Most of the sources quoted are on-line, and the site is referenced if available.
The specific reason/s for WisDOT's action has been unclear, both in conversation and writing. The following are reasons which have been offered by WisDOT as an explanation for the cancelation of Pinzgauer owner's operating privileges, followed by the (source):
manufactured in Switzerland to be used as a military vehicle, isn't manufactured for road use, doesn't meet the requirements (A)
NON-ROADWORTHY, NOT FOR HWY. USE (B)
manufactured for off-highway use, didn't have vehicle identification numbers marking them as safe for highway use (C)
vehicles that are manufactured outside of the United States and are more than 25 years old that do not meet the Federal Motor Carriers Safety Standards (D)
unless the vehicle meets the provisions of s114 of the national traffic and motor vehicle safety act of 1966, post 1968 foreign cars and trucks (E)(M)
We have offered several factors to support our claim that Steyr-Puch Pinzgauers should be allowed to operate legally in Wisconsin. The following are our reasons for believing WisDOT's information is incorrect and their actions were unjustified:
WisDOT is wrong. The Pinzgauer was actually built in Graz, Austria by the Steyr-Daimler-Puch works for both military and civilian markets. (G)(L)(N)(P)(Q)
Pinzgauers are currently accepted for legal on-road use in every other U.S. state, as well as Canada, UK, Germany, Austria, Australia, etc....
The Pinzgauer is suitable for use on-road. It is equipped with directional and hazard lights, a horn, high- and low-beam headlamps, a high-speed transfer case allowing speeds of over 65 mph, and tires rated for road speeds. (G)(L)(N)(P)(Q) The Pinzgauer can "hum along the highway at 70 mph". (Q) "Low range is used for off road driving while the normal or high range is used for both on and off road operation". (Q) "The total weight of the largest Pinzgauer was limited by design "to permit driving by holders of normal passenger car driving licenses". (G) The Pinzgauer is considered a motor vehicle by NHTSA. (L)
The Pinzgauer, like any foreign imported motor vehicle which is over 25 years old at the time of importation, is essentially exempted from FMVSS safety standards. (I)(J)(K)
WisDOT listed four ways for a foreign imported vehicle to qualify to operate on WI roads. (E) The fact that these trucks were imported by licensed dealers and accepted by NHTSA would suggest that the "vehicle meets NHTSA". (I)(L) And while NHTSA does not list the Pinzgauer as "substantially similar with another similar conforming model", the military version is virtually identical to the DOT approved civilian model in Colorado.
NHTSA affirmed their previous conclusion that the civilian Pinzgauer is a motor vehicle, both in the 4-wheeled and the 6-wheeled versions, and provides the five factors they considered in making their decision. While this letter is specific to the civilian version, the military version of the Pinzgauer apparently also meets these five factors. (L)
The Pinzgauer satisfies the provisions of the WI Statute 341.10(6). The Pinzgauer is not a "vehicle (which) is originally designed and manufactured for off-highway operation", but was instead determined to be a motor vehicle based on NHTSA's five factors. It also meets the provisions of The Highway Safety Act inasmuch as Title 49 U.S. Code Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Subchapter II Section 30112 specifies that the prohibition on importing non-complying motor vehicles is nonapplicable since the motor vehicle was at least 25 years old when imported. A nonapplicable prohibition means that it's OK. (K)(L)(M)
WisDOT allows neighborhood electric vehicles (NEVs) to be operated on public roads with posted speeds of 35 mph. WisDOT allows "a local retailer" to build them. NEVs are required to have headlights, brake lights, front and rear turn signals, side and rearview mirrors, reflex reflectors, a parking brake, a safety glass windshield, three-point seat belts, and a VIN number in order to be considered street legal. (O) Except for the reflex reflectors, safety glass windshield, and a VIN number, these items were all standard features for Pinzgauers. Unlike NEVs, Pinzgauers also were equipped with defrosters, roll bars, and offered four- or six-wheel drive, similar to some of the safety features of modern vehicles. Furthermore, Pinzgauers were built by Steyr-Daimler-Puch, one of Europe's largest truck manufacturers, instead of being assembled by a "local retailer".
We believe that WisDOT is not administering their policy evenhandedly and the result is unfair. Consider the following observations:
WisDOT admits that their application of current regulation is far from uniform. (E) We agree.
The "NON-ROADWORTHY" brandings on the new titles effectively make it impossible to sell the truck for road use, despite a lack of evidence to support this branding. (B)
WisDOT considers Pinzgauers, Unimogs, and Land Rovers to be non-conforming. (E) Yet it seems that only Pinzgauer owners have lost their operating privileges so far. A Mercedes Benz Unimog, license plate #13149, still has a license plate and was observed driving on Williamson Street in Madison at 11:25am on Friday, February 22.
The Pinzgauer, like every domestic-built Historic Military Vehicle, foreign imported vehicle, and kit-car built since 1968, lacks the FMVSS label. They may or may not meet the equipment requirements. Why haven't these vehicles' operating privileges also been cancelled?
Apparently, other previously registered non-compliant vehicles (including domestic-built Historic Military Vehicles, foreign imported civilian vehicles, and kit-cars) built since 1968 were "grandfathered", as they have been allowed to retain their operating privileges. Certainly the number of these vehicles is far greater than the 29 Pinzgauers which WisDOT claims to have revoked the operating privileges of. (C) So if virtually every non-compliant vehicle built since 1968 can still operate, why are Pinzgauers the only vehicle actually affected by this "policy"?
Pinzgauers licensed in other states can still operate legally on Wisconsin roads, yet taxpaying citizens cannot do so. That is not fair to Wisconsin citizens. How is WisDOT going to honor the reciprocity agreements with other states?
"The Pinzgauer purchaser will be the guy who really needs four-wheel drive a lot", in applications such as "oil exploration, lumbering, pipeline work, remote resorts, and the megabuck agribusiness". (R) For many rural Wisconsinites, a four-wheel drive truck is a necessity. Most of us use them for jobs which no other vehicle is capable of performing. "Off-road it's spectacular". (R)
WisDOT has proposed legislation to limit the uses to which Pinzgauers can be put. (E) Despite claims of misuse of Collector plates, (E) non-roadworthiness, and being unsafe, (B)(C) WisDOT has not provided any evidence to suggest that Pinzgauer usage needs to be limited or halted. Pinzgauers should be required to carry licenses which are appropriate for the use of the truck. ie. Farm plates for farmers, Collector plates for parade trucks, Light Truck plates for personal utility functions. The owner should choose and purchase the license based on their intended use, just like other motor vehicles.
Expecting Pinzgauer owners to await a possible solution "hopefully" sometime in 2009, while other non-conforming vehicles are allowed to continue to operate is not fair. If non-conforming Pinzgauers cannot operate, then all non-conforming vehicles' operating privileges should be cancelled until a solution is reached. Similarly, if some non-conforming vehicles are allowed to continue operating while this issue is sorted out, then all non-conforming vehicles (including Pinzgauers) should be allowed to continue operating. The WisDOT policy should be fair and evenhanded.
In short, it seems that WisDOT is trying to enforce Federal laws which were set up for vehicles less than 25 years old on our Pinzgauers.
Unless WisDOT has evidence to the contrary, it is safe to assume that all Pinzgauers in the U.S. were legally imported under the scrutiny of the U.S. DOT and NHTSA and according to U.S. law. (F)(H)(I)(J)(K)(L)(M) They were not exempted from FMVSS standards through a "loophole" in the law. They were imported legally for highway operation.
A fair solution might include immediate reinstatement of Pinzgauer owner's original title, license plate, and operating privileges. Owners who intend to license their trucks for daily use, ie. Farm or Light Truck plates would likely agree to a reasonable list of modifications (ie. DOT tail and reverse lamps, safety-glass windshield, and side reflectors or lamps) which would be required and inspected by WisDOT. Many Pinzgauers were modified to these standards at the time of importation. Pinzgauer owners are interested in safety too. We will support a reasonable, fair solution.
Sources cited in the above statement:
(A) WisDOT letter dated 9/25/07 announcing the cancelation of our titles and license plates.
(B) Corrected Title Sample (#072680568012-9) issued 9/25/07 with brandings.
(C) Wisconsin State Journal article "State law may take historic military vehicles off the road" 11/08/07.
(D) WisDOT letter dated 1/12/08.
(E) WisDOT / HMV Meeting Notes G503 Web Site www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=101394&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=135
(F) Original Title #02171A4019-7 dated 6/27/02.
(G) Automobile Revue - Reprint from Swiss Army publication 25-1971 provides a detailed mechanical description of Pinzgauers. www.t2k.com/pinz/id16.htm
(H) Highway Safety Act of 1966 (23 USC Chapter 4). www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/whatsup/tea21/GrantMan/HTML/07_Sect402Leg23USC_Chap4.html
(I) NHTSA List of Nonconforming motor vehicles that are eligible for importation. (page 1 only) www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/elig010807.pdf
(J) U.S. DOT for HS-7. www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/hs799short.pdf
(K) Title 49 U.S. Code Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Subchapter II Section 30112. frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+49USC30112
(L) NHTSA letter of interpretation d:12/14/90 by Chief Counsel Paul Jackson Rice to Roger C. Fairchild, Esq. //isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/2788y.html
(M) Wisconsin Statute 341.10(6). http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0341.pdf
(N) Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer operating instructions.
(O) Mount Horeb Mail article "Despite opportunities, NEV use sparse in Mount Horeb" 11/29/07
(P) Pinzgauer Of America sales brochure, circa 1979 http://www.goatwerks.com/images/Flash for site/3_PinzAmerica.pdf
(Q) Four Wheeler magazine article "Puch-Pinzgauer" August 1978
(R) Car and Driver magazine article "Pinzgauer!" July 1978
(S) Military Vehicles Magazine advertisement October 2007
I just sent an email to John Varden MVPA about it.
WisDOT is attempting to introduce legislation "sometime in '09, hopefully" to address this. In the meantime, the owners of Pinzgauers are OFF THE ROAD.
Please look up http://www.wisconsin-pinzgauers.org/
Right now, the site is closed to the public, you must join to see what's there.
Tell Tom that Paul refered you, and you'll get in.
The site will go public in a few days, and we'll lay out our argument - why we have been wronged, the legal reasons behind our case, some suggestions for resolving the issue, and ways for the public to speak their minds.
This issue is FAR from being resolved.
Thank you ALL for your support. Any questions? Call or write me. I'm happy to discuss it.
Determinedly,
Paul Underwood
608 437-3465
ps: this is what we presented to WisDOT at the last meeting. Sorry it's so long:
STEYR-PUCH PINZGAUERS AND WISCONSIN
The operating privileges for Wisconsin owners of Steyr-Puch Pinzgauers were cancelled by WisDOT, effective September 25, 2007. We, the owners, believe this action was unwarranted and that their policy has been unfairly applied. Described by the press as "the most expensive four-wheeler in the world" and a "hand-made, low-production, high quality item", (Q) the Pinzgauer merits reconsideration. Most of the sources quoted are on-line, and the site is referenced if available.
The specific reason/s for WisDOT's action has been unclear, both in conversation and writing. The following are reasons which have been offered by WisDOT as an explanation for the cancelation of Pinzgauer owner's operating privileges, followed by the (source):
manufactured in Switzerland to be used as a military vehicle, isn't manufactured for road use, doesn't meet the requirements (A)
NON-ROADWORTHY, NOT FOR HWY. USE (B)
manufactured for off-highway use, didn't have vehicle identification numbers marking them as safe for highway use (C)
vehicles that are manufactured outside of the United States and are more than 25 years old that do not meet the Federal Motor Carriers Safety Standards (D)
unless the vehicle meets the provisions of s114 of the national traffic and motor vehicle safety act of 1966, post 1968 foreign cars and trucks (E)(M)
We have offered several factors to support our claim that Steyr-Puch Pinzgauers should be allowed to operate legally in Wisconsin. The following are our reasons for believing WisDOT's information is incorrect and their actions were unjustified:
WisDOT is wrong. The Pinzgauer was actually built in Graz, Austria by the Steyr-Daimler-Puch works for both military and civilian markets. (G)(L)(N)(P)(Q)
Pinzgauers are currently accepted for legal on-road use in every other U.S. state, as well as Canada, UK, Germany, Austria, Australia, etc....
The Pinzgauer is suitable for use on-road. It is equipped with directional and hazard lights, a horn, high- and low-beam headlamps, a high-speed transfer case allowing speeds of over 65 mph, and tires rated for road speeds. (G)(L)(N)(P)(Q) The Pinzgauer can "hum along the highway at 70 mph". (Q) "Low range is used for off road driving while the normal or high range is used for both on and off road operation". (Q) "The total weight of the largest Pinzgauer was limited by design "to permit driving by holders of normal passenger car driving licenses". (G) The Pinzgauer is considered a motor vehicle by NHTSA. (L)
The Pinzgauer, like any foreign imported motor vehicle which is over 25 years old at the time of importation, is essentially exempted from FMVSS safety standards. (I)(J)(K)
WisDOT listed four ways for a foreign imported vehicle to qualify to operate on WI roads. (E) The fact that these trucks were imported by licensed dealers and accepted by NHTSA would suggest that the "vehicle meets NHTSA". (I)(L) And while NHTSA does not list the Pinzgauer as "substantially similar with another similar conforming model", the military version is virtually identical to the DOT approved civilian model in Colorado.
NHTSA affirmed their previous conclusion that the civilian Pinzgauer is a motor vehicle, both in the 4-wheeled and the 6-wheeled versions, and provides the five factors they considered in making their decision. While this letter is specific to the civilian version, the military version of the Pinzgauer apparently also meets these five factors. (L)
The Pinzgauer satisfies the provisions of the WI Statute 341.10(6). The Pinzgauer is not a "vehicle (which) is originally designed and manufactured for off-highway operation", but was instead determined to be a motor vehicle based on NHTSA's five factors. It also meets the provisions of The Highway Safety Act inasmuch as Title 49 U.S. Code Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Subchapter II Section 30112 specifies that the prohibition on importing non-complying motor vehicles is nonapplicable since the motor vehicle was at least 25 years old when imported. A nonapplicable prohibition means that it's OK. (K)(L)(M)
WisDOT allows neighborhood electric vehicles (NEVs) to be operated on public roads with posted speeds of 35 mph. WisDOT allows "a local retailer" to build them. NEVs are required to have headlights, brake lights, front and rear turn signals, side and rearview mirrors, reflex reflectors, a parking brake, a safety glass windshield, three-point seat belts, and a VIN number in order to be considered street legal. (O) Except for the reflex reflectors, safety glass windshield, and a VIN number, these items were all standard features for Pinzgauers. Unlike NEVs, Pinzgauers also were equipped with defrosters, roll bars, and offered four- or six-wheel drive, similar to some of the safety features of modern vehicles. Furthermore, Pinzgauers were built by Steyr-Daimler-Puch, one of Europe's largest truck manufacturers, instead of being assembled by a "local retailer".
We believe that WisDOT is not administering their policy evenhandedly and the result is unfair. Consider the following observations:
WisDOT admits that their application of current regulation is far from uniform. (E) We agree.
The "NON-ROADWORTHY" brandings on the new titles effectively make it impossible to sell the truck for road use, despite a lack of evidence to support this branding. (B)
WisDOT considers Pinzgauers, Unimogs, and Land Rovers to be non-conforming. (E) Yet it seems that only Pinzgauer owners have lost their operating privileges so far. A Mercedes Benz Unimog, license plate #13149, still has a license plate and was observed driving on Williamson Street in Madison at 11:25am on Friday, February 22.
The Pinzgauer, like every domestic-built Historic Military Vehicle, foreign imported vehicle, and kit-car built since 1968, lacks the FMVSS label. They may or may not meet the equipment requirements. Why haven't these vehicles' operating privileges also been cancelled?
Apparently, other previously registered non-compliant vehicles (including domestic-built Historic Military Vehicles, foreign imported civilian vehicles, and kit-cars) built since 1968 were "grandfathered", as they have been allowed to retain their operating privileges. Certainly the number of these vehicles is far greater than the 29 Pinzgauers which WisDOT claims to have revoked the operating privileges of. (C) So if virtually every non-compliant vehicle built since 1968 can still operate, why are Pinzgauers the only vehicle actually affected by this "policy"?
Pinzgauers licensed in other states can still operate legally on Wisconsin roads, yet taxpaying citizens cannot do so. That is not fair to Wisconsin citizens. How is WisDOT going to honor the reciprocity agreements with other states?
"The Pinzgauer purchaser will be the guy who really needs four-wheel drive a lot", in applications such as "oil exploration, lumbering, pipeline work, remote resorts, and the megabuck agribusiness". (R) For many rural Wisconsinites, a four-wheel drive truck is a necessity. Most of us use them for jobs which no other vehicle is capable of performing. "Off-road it's spectacular". (R)
WisDOT has proposed legislation to limit the uses to which Pinzgauers can be put. (E) Despite claims of misuse of Collector plates, (E) non-roadworthiness, and being unsafe, (B)(C) WisDOT has not provided any evidence to suggest that Pinzgauer usage needs to be limited or halted. Pinzgauers should be required to carry licenses which are appropriate for the use of the truck. ie. Farm plates for farmers, Collector plates for parade trucks, Light Truck plates for personal utility functions. The owner should choose and purchase the license based on their intended use, just like other motor vehicles.
Expecting Pinzgauer owners to await a possible solution "hopefully" sometime in 2009, while other non-conforming vehicles are allowed to continue to operate is not fair. If non-conforming Pinzgauers cannot operate, then all non-conforming vehicles' operating privileges should be cancelled until a solution is reached. Similarly, if some non-conforming vehicles are allowed to continue operating while this issue is sorted out, then all non-conforming vehicles (including Pinzgauers) should be allowed to continue operating. The WisDOT policy should be fair and evenhanded.
In short, it seems that WisDOT is trying to enforce Federal laws which were set up for vehicles less than 25 years old on our Pinzgauers.
Unless WisDOT has evidence to the contrary, it is safe to assume that all Pinzgauers in the U.S. were legally imported under the scrutiny of the U.S. DOT and NHTSA and according to U.S. law. (F)(H)(I)(J)(K)(L)(M) They were not exempted from FMVSS standards through a "loophole" in the law. They were imported legally for highway operation.
A fair solution might include immediate reinstatement of Pinzgauer owner's original title, license plate, and operating privileges. Owners who intend to license their trucks for daily use, ie. Farm or Light Truck plates would likely agree to a reasonable list of modifications (ie. DOT tail and reverse lamps, safety-glass windshield, and side reflectors or lamps) which would be required and inspected by WisDOT. Many Pinzgauers were modified to these standards at the time of importation. Pinzgauer owners are interested in safety too. We will support a reasonable, fair solution.
Sources cited in the above statement:
(A) WisDOT letter dated 9/25/07 announcing the cancelation of our titles and license plates.
(B) Corrected Title Sample (#072680568012-9) issued 9/25/07 with brandings.
(C) Wisconsin State Journal article "State law may take historic military vehicles off the road" 11/08/07.
(D) WisDOT letter dated 1/12/08.
(E) WisDOT / HMV Meeting Notes G503 Web Site www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=101394&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=135
(F) Original Title #02171A4019-7 dated 6/27/02.
(G) Automobile Revue - Reprint from Swiss Army publication 25-1971 provides a detailed mechanical description of Pinzgauers. www.t2k.com/pinz/id16.htm
(H) Highway Safety Act of 1966 (23 USC Chapter 4). www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/whatsup/tea21/GrantMan/HTML/07_Sect402Leg23USC_Chap4.html
(I) NHTSA List of Nonconforming motor vehicles that are eligible for importation. (page 1 only) www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/elig010807.pdf
(J) U.S. DOT for HS-7. www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/hs799short.pdf
(K) Title 49 U.S. Code Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Subchapter II Section 30112. frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+49USC30112
(L) NHTSA letter of interpretation d:12/14/90 by Chief Counsel Paul Jackson Rice to Roger C. Fairchild, Esq. //isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/2788y.html
(M) Wisconsin Statute 341.10(6). http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0341.pdf
(N) Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer operating instructions.
(O) Mount Horeb Mail article "Despite opportunities, NEV use sparse in Mount Horeb" 11/29/07
(P) Pinzgauer Of America sales brochure, circa 1979 http://www.goatwerks.com/images/Flash for site/3_PinzAmerica.pdf
(Q) Four Wheeler magazine article "Puch-Pinzgauer" August 1978
(R) Car and Driver magazine article "Pinzgauer!" July 1978
(S) Military Vehicles Magazine advertisement October 2007