Wrecker wishlist of mods

[red]

Part of why I am considering this is for a idea that I have. Similar to what Soni did with his FEMMT by having multiple bed platforms to swap out, I want to have that with my wrecker. Where relocating the axles affects that is with both the wrecker bed and a 5th wheel tractor setup. No interest in having multiple vehicles.

Another Option instead of making the bed removable, would be to copy the 5th wheel capability of the m819. Thinking that might be easier to accomplish. So basically take Zebedee's wheelbase stretch idea




Relocate the rear winch to just behind the cab and using rollers to guide the cable out past the crane/bed. Then installing a 5th wheel plate where the rear winch was, similar to the back of this m819.




Input is greatly appreciated as to which idea would be better to go with and why.

 

[zebedee]

Another Option instead of making the bed removable, would be to copy the 5th wheel capability of the m819. Thinking that might be easier to accomplish. So basically take Zebedee's wheelbase stretch idea. Relocate the rear winch to just behind the cab and using rollers to guide the cable out past the crane/bed. Then installing a 5th wheel plate where the rear winch was, similar to the back of this m819.Input is greatly appreciated as to which idea would be better to go with and why.

What exactly are you trying to achieve - as in - what proportion of time will you be semi trailering, what kind of recovery will you be doing and how often, do you need rotator crane function?????

Have you considered a Tru-Hitch for a tractor? I think there is a civi one for sale 3/4hr from me - don't know the price...

Soni's truck is more suited to the dump body, water tank type rigid truck format that also works perfectly as a wrecker/tractor.
An 819 does not work well for a box trailer unless you can drive with the boom over the cab.
A stretched 816/936 will be bad for trailering heavy loads - too much of the gross combination weight taken up with the truck.
A wrecker with a trailer conversion dolly works well if you trailer infrequently and can back a full trailer.
You can even make a semi trailer hitch for a wrecker, similar to the underlift fifth wheel coupling - that's how they recover a semi trailer when the tractor is wrecked and towed separately.......


All have their pluses and minuses - you just need to decide what your goals are.

 

[Trailboss]

[My M936 wrecker boom will swing over the cab, which would get it out of the way of a box trailer on a hitch, but I don't know if it will stay off the cab without the PTO engaged or some boom supports installed. ] EDIT - Never mind, Ron debunked this idea in the next post



I went with a M197A1 trailer dolly to use with the wrecker or cargo trucks (backing the trailer takes a lot of practice and patience!).

 

[73m819]

The boom issue with box trailers hooked to the 5th wheel on the 819 does not get better if the boom is over the cab because of the rear overhang of the crane. If you mounted the winch between the crane and the cab, that would take a lot of room to get the fleet angle right so the cable will lay on the drum right when taken in. I believe that if you mount the 5th wheel where the winch is, you will have a very tail heavy unit with a LOADED flatbed attached, things will be just like the lite front end when lift towing, the 5th wheel needs to be where it is on the 819 in order not to have a light hard to steer front end.

What I would do is stretch the frame back BEHIND the rear winch, LEAVE the winch because the no rear winch issue is the major drawback of the 819 though I will be correcting that on my 819, move the rears back to the new REINFORCED stretched frame, mount the 5th wheel there, centered just in front of the trunion. One thing you need to remember is that your crane reach even stretched out over the rear will be short, with the only 18' of boom flat out, about the only thing that can be reached would be right behind the 5th wheel, the 819 on the other hand has 26' of reach, without the second section out, the to the rear work area is very limited.

SO my suggestion is to find a 819, build on that platform to what you want, there is a LOT of reasons for this suggestion,
1 -- A triple frame under the crane.
2 -- Heaver stock tires/wheels (1200x20 and even these are to lite for the front)
3 -- Heaver front hubs
4 -- longer boom (26')
5 -- Rear outrigger on the very rear as compared to a stretched wrecker.
6 -- The rear outrigger pads come off for trailer pulling.
7 -- The ramps are not just there but ARE part of the triple frame .
8 -- There is plenty of room for a right hand fuel tank AND under bed boxes on both sides.
9 -- EVERYTHING that you want to do with you wrecker is ALREADY there, so instead of spending your time and money to BUILD a 819 CLONE from your wrecker them mod the build, just mod the 819 to how you want it, just modding you wrecker will take a LONGGGGGGGGGGG time, then MODDING the MODDED wrecker will take a long time, WILL YOU LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO SEE THE FINISHED PROJECT. WHY reinvent the wheel the wheel, just polish it.

There is no point engineering the 819 clone when it is already done for you, the drive line is already done for you, the high points of stress are already delt with for you, AND I believe that it will be CHEAPER for you to START with a 819 platform AND I also believe you will be HAPPIER in the long run.

REMEMBER once you use a m819 there is NOTHING to go back to.

 

[red]

What exactly are you trying to achieve - as in - what proportion of time will you be semi trailering, what kind of recovery will you be doing and how often, do you need rotator crane function?????

Have you considered a Tru-Hitch for a tractor? I think there is a civi one for sale 3/4hr from me - don't know the price...

Soni's truck is more suited to the dump body, water tank type rigid truck format that also works perfectly as a wrecker/tractor.
An 819 does not work well for a box trailer unless you can drive with the boom over the cab.
A stretched 816/936 will be bad for trailering heavy loads - too much of the gross combination weight taken up with the truck.
A wrecker with a trailer conversion dolly works well if you trailer infrequently and can back a full trailer.
You can even make a semi trailer hitch for a wrecker, similar to the underlift fifth wheel coupling - that's how they recover a semi trailer when the tractor is wrecked and towed separately.......


All have their pluses and minuses - you just need to decide what your goals are.

Most of what I do with the truck is hobby related. Might get some work setup at a few of the local offroad areas but the truck is not a main source of income for me. One of the big reasons why I bought an MV (m35a2 was first, replaced by the m816) is for an expedition rig. A wrecker bed is not ideal for a expedition rig clearly but the 816 popped up at the right price at the right time for me and has proven itself to be extremely valuable and versatile. The rotator crane function is not a necessity for me, can get by just fine using a gin pole setup.

Admittedly a truck with a rear winch and tail roller would be just about perfect for me. Bridge truck or m920 for example. A vehicle that is versatile suites my needs and goals perfectly.
Have looked at the Tru-Hitch for a tractor. If I had a tractor then a rear winch on the truck and a flatbed trailer would be better suited for me.

Forgot about the lack of clearance with the box trailers and the crane on the m819. Copying that to a m816 would create a similar problem.


Great input and questions.

 

[73m819]

Most of what I do with the truck is hobby related. Might get some work setup at a few of the local offroad areas but the truck is not a main source of income for me. One of the big reasons why I bought an MV (m35a2 was first, replaced by the m816) is for an expedition rig. A wrecker bed is not ideal for a expedition rig clearly but the 816 popped up at the right price at the right time for me and has proven itself to be extremely valuable and versatile. The rotator crane function is not a necessity for me, can get by just fine using a gin pole setup.

Admittedly a truck with a rear winch and tail roller would be just about perfect for me. Bridge truck or m920 for example. A vehicle that is versatile suites my needs and goals perfectly.
Have looked at the Tru-Hitch for a tractor. If I had a tractor then a rear winch on the truck and a flatbed trailer would be better suited for me.

Forgot about the lack of clearance with the box trailers and the crane on the m819. Copying that to a m816 would create a similar problem.


Great input and questions.

One more thing, a 36,000 lb. anything makes a very heavy expedition vehicle, that will find the bottom of a mud hole faster then a NY second, then once the bottom is found, do not count on the winches pulling it out they may or may not, if not then what.

 

[wcuhillbilly]

the 819 on the other hand has 26' of reach, without the second section out, the to the rear work area is very limited.

SO my suggestion is to find a 819, build on that platform to what you want, there is a LOT of reasons for this suggestion,
1 -- A triple frame under the crane.
2 -- Heaver stock tires/wheels (1200x20 and even these are to lite for the front)
3 -- Heaver front hubs
4 -- longer boom (26')
5 -- Rear outrigger on the very rear as compared to a stretched wrecker.
6 -- The rear outrigger pads come off for trailer pulling.
7 -- The ramps are not just there but ARE part of the triple frame .
8 -- There is plenty of room for a right hand fuel tank AND under bed boxes on both sides.
9 -- EVERYTHING that you want to do with you wrecker is ALREADY there, so instead of spending your time and
Let me add,,,,, Cat engine with 18spd trans, full hydraulic- winches, crane, outriggers etc. swap front axle for front wheel drive axle off,,, say a concrete truck that is center loader for clearance of the Eaton Fuller 18 and set with extra heavy duty front kingpins and bearings. air lockers all round..... air brakes,,, maybe some A/C,,, good tunes, cab insulation, and while we are at it,,, an air chair, smaller steering wheel and oh yes....... A beverage holder.....
REMEMBER once you use a m819 there is NOTHING to go back to.

One more thing, a 36,000 lb. anything makes a very heavy expedition vehicle, that will find the bottom of a mud hole faster then a NY second, then once the bottom is found, do not count on the winches pulling it out they may or may not, if not then what.

The winches will likely rip out what ever they are hooked to... a BFT is going to become an uprooted Tree shortly,,,,,,,,, I have nightmares about this day......

 

[red]

The boom issue with box trailers hooked to the 5th wheel on the 819 does not get better if the boom is over the cab because of the rear overhang of the crane. If you mounted the winch between the crane and the cab, that would take a lot of room to get the fleet angle right so the cable will lay on the drum right when taken in. I believe that if you mount the 5th wheel where the winch is, you will have a very tail heavy unit with a LOADED flatbed attached, things will be just like the lite front end when lift towing, the 5th wheel needs to be where it is on the 819 in order not to have a light hard to steer front end.

What I would do is stretch the frame back BEHIND the rear winch, LEAVE the winch because the no rear winch issue is the major drawback of the 819 though I will be correcting that on my 819, move the rears back to the new REINFORCED stretched frame, mount the 5th wheel there, centered just in front of the trunion. One thing you need to remember is that your crane reach even stretched out over the rear will be short, with the only 18' of boom flat out, about the only thing that can be reached would be right behind the 5th wheel, the 819 on the other hand has 26' of reach, without the second section out, the to the rear work area is very limited.

SO my suggestion is to find a 819, build on that platform to what you want, there is a LOT of reasons for this suggestion,
1 -- A triple frame under the crane.
2 -- Heaver stock tires/wheels (1200x20 and even these are to lite for the front)
3 -- Heaver front hubs
4 -- longer boom (26')
5 -- Rear outrigger on the very rear as compared to a stretched wrecker.
6 -- The rear outrigger pads come off for trailer pulling.
7 -- The ramps are not just there but ARE part of the triple frame .
8 -- There is plenty of room for a right hand fuel tank AND under bed boxes on both sides.
9 -- EVERYTHING that you want to do with you wrecker is ALREADY there, so instead of spending your time and money to BUILD a 819 CLONE from your wrecker them mod the build, just mod the 819 to how you want it, just modding you wrecker will take a LONGGGGGGGGGGG time, then MODDING the MODDED wrecker will take a long time, WILL YOU LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO SEE THE FINISHED PROJECT. WHY reinvent the wheel the wheel, just polish it.

There is no point engineering the 819 clone when it is already done for you, the drive line is already done for you, the high points of stress are already delt with for you, AND I believe that it will be CHEAPER for you to START with a 819 platform AND I also believe you will be HAPPIER in the long run.

REMEMBER once you use a m819 there is NOTHING to go back to.

I've only seen 1 m819 for sale and it was on the other side of the US haha.

Doesn't the level wind significantly reduce the required distance for the fleet angle on the winch cable? The stock setup locates the winch right behind its roller fairlead. If I moved the winch to behind the cab and placed it where the spare tire mount is the only way I can see to run the cable is through the main cargo box and use 2 rollers to guide the cable out to the side of the crane then towards the rear of the bed. Would lose about 1/3rd of the box and the stock front outriggers that way but it's a mod I could live with.

Last thing I want to do is lose (permanently) of one of the wreckers capabilities. As you mentioned with the idea of stretching the frame even longer would reduce the lift towing capability because the crane would be extended. And remove the strongest lifting area for the crane (off the rear of the truck). So extending the frame further permanently is a no go. Moving the tandems to the rear is fine.
Time for projects is something I have right now. 29, no kids, using the GI bill for college, time is currently my friend so long as weather cooperates haha.

As far as trailer weight, lets figure 45k on the pavement. That would cover another vehicle on a trailer.

Looking like getting a usable 5th wheel on the m816 is a no go.

 

[red]

[My M936 wrecker boom will swing over the cab, which would get it out of the way of a box trailer on a hitch, but I don't know if it will stay off the cab without the PTO engaged or some boom supports installed. ] EDIT - Never mind, Ron debunked this idea in the next post



I went with a M197A1 trailer dolly to use with the wrecker or cargo trucks (backing the trailer takes a lot of practice and patience!).

Haven't played around with tow dolly's much but have seen how much of a pain in the ass it is to back them up with another trailer on them hahaha.

wcuhillbilly theres a thread on here where someone installed a Cummins 400 with a Eaton Fuller 13 speed? in a m819. Used the factory engine offset and stock 5 ton front axle.

 

[red]

Oh and great input y'all. Even though shooting down one idea y'all are giving great reasons for it and other ideas, much appreciated

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Another Ahab]

One more thing, a 36,000 lb. anything makes a very heavy expedition vehicle, that will find the bottom of a mud hole faster then a NY second, then once the bottom is found, do not count on the winches pulling it out they may or may not, if not then what.

The winches will likely rip out what ever they are hooked to... a BFT is going to become an uprooted Tree shortly,,,,,,,,, I have nightmares about this day......

For "that day":

Get the business card of somebody with one of THESE suckers:

 

[wcuhillbilly]

Haven't played around with tow dolly's much but have seen how much of a pain in the ass it is to back them up with another trailer on them hahaha.
Seen a power driven tow dolly in Gov Liq some years ago,, USMC version that had another drive axle and it bolted to the rear of our trucks where the bumperettes are, and a short drive shaft to the rear output of the rear most axle. this thing had a locker and a 5th wheel plate. once fixed it was like a bed/truck extension. haven't seen one in a while but there are a few out there. This would also help with weight distrib like a pusher axle.

wcuhillbilly theres a thread on here where someone installed a Cummins 400 with a Eaton Fuller 13 speed? in a m819. Used the factory engine offset and stock 5 ton front axle.[/QUOTE]

yeah, 3 guys were into it at some point. 1 was up in the New England area but they never finished it(that one was an 809). one of them was Trango, and I tried to contact him about 6 months ago to no avail,,,, seems to have dropped off the page. He is down in Boulder CO thus just out of driving range to pull a recon. The other guy that was headed that way was Vintage Iron up in Mass. and he and I talked for a while.... basically it was going to be a mess of routing a late model 900 series cargo truck 2 piece shaft off the T case over to the left frame rail and up under the engine with another carrier bearing to hit the top loader. Basically a banking double bounce pool shot to hit the front axle. the front Rockwells are tough but there is commercial stuff out there that is tougher with a center feed that would allow the elimination of the pin ball driveline angle.
I will have to resume the meditative state of contemplation that has become my usual state of affairs with this beast..... though not today,, too cold and wet... I will crawl back in my hole and continue my SMG build.....

 

[red]

Huh, basically a powered dolly that is fixed to the truck frame. Removable when needed for lift towing or lifting heavy off the rear of the truck.

Do you remember how it connected to the truck frame?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[wcuhillbilly]

bolted in like a frame extension at the rear bumperettes. there was a 5th wheel version and a dual axle trailer version. don't remember the mod # but spent some time crawling over the pics on Gov Liq... about 2-3 years ago when I was looking for my 816

Davis probably knows what they are....

 

[jesusgatos]

tractor + knuckleboom + truhitch = most versatile combo

 

[73m819]

One more thing, a 36,000 lb. anything makes a very heavy expedition vehicle, that will find the bottom of a mud hole faster then a NY second, then once the bottom is found, do not count on the winches pulling it out they may or may not, if not then what.

As to the 36,000 lbs stuck deep in anything, according to fm 20-22 (Vehicle Recovery Operations), the needed pull is THREE TIMES the struck weight (108000 lbs ), now finding a 108000 lb dead man just may be a slight problem, also 20-22 states if possible, vehicle struck deep should have the front end elevated or chains attached between the frame and the front axle to help prevent the front axle from being ripped off.

 

[Another Ahab]

As to the 36,000 lbs stuck deep in anything, according to fm 20-22 (Vehicle Recovery Operations), the needed pull is THREE TIMES the struck weight (108000 lbs ), now finding a 108000 lb dead man just may be a slight problem, also 20-22 states if possible, vehicle struck deep should have the front end elevated or chains attached between the frame and the front axle to help prevent the front axle from being ripped off.

What's the "20-22 states" comment mean, 73m819:

- Are you talking about passing a national resolution?!

"It will be illegal, subject to fines and prison-time, to get your wrecker stuck in a mudhole if it weighs more than 1/3 the pulling capacity of any other wrecker located in that same state. NO warnings."

 

[red]

Heh been stuck to the axles in the wrecker (before I had the recovery equipment or new rear winch cable). M923a2 had been buried past the headlights.


Get the tracks! Nope, he sank too haha.




That made for a long night. If either winch had good cable it would have been better. That being said I have a roll of replacement cable for the rear winch and a locker that is going into the middle axle.


Will have to check out the removable frame extensions with the 5th wheel and a 4th axle idea. That would provide 5th wheel capabilities without permanently disabling lift tow or heavy lifting from the rear. Also have all the parts sitting here to do that because the frame/axles/suspension from the m51a2 hasn't been sold off and I have a 5th wheel/ramps from a m931 sitting there as well.

How would yall set it up? (edit) Just had an idea pop in my head of making the extension mounted on a hinge at that back of the truck. Lift it up vertical with the crane/pinned in place when not needed and lowered down/secured when needed. Might block the crane when setting up for a lift tow if it was setup that way.

 

[73m819]

What's the "20-22 states" comment mean, 73m819:

- Are you talking about passing a national resolution?!

"It will be illegal, subject to fines and prison-time, to get your wrecker stuck in a mudhole if it weighs more than 1/3 the pulling capacity of any other wrecker located in that same state. NO warnings."

fm 20-22 (Vehicle Recovery Operations

 

[Another Ahab]

Ohhh.... "states".

Yeah, it's a verb AND a noun. Got it!